Just want to pick the brains of the U.K. headz on here...

[Gibbo]

Basically, I'm a long time lurker who only registered about a year ago. Living in Ireland but moving to Bristol on Thursday to try and pursue work. As I alluded to in another thread, Ireland is economic dead weight at the minute so I decided to chance my arm elsewhere (my background is in education, so I may end up working in schools in some capacity).

Since I'm heading to somewhat greener pastures and hoping to get some fresh perspectives I had a bit of a brainwave. I've been sitting on an old college dissertation that I'd love to try and realize into a book. Basically it traces the history of sample culture from musique concrete (from Pierre Boulez et al to avant garde composers like Cage/Stockhausen) all the way up to the zenith of sampling culture in the 80's (encompassing everything from Brian Eno to Prince Paul). The premise of the book is basically an overview of the history of the culture and to present it as an art form in itself. But I'd love to expand the original to encompass things like the various legal aspects and landmark cases that occurred and their impact on how sample based music is produced.

I definitely have the bones of something interesting but was just wondering if there would be a market for such a thing? Would it be worth hitting up some publishers when I get over there? Which ones? I never really considered it up until now but I think I'd need some kind of development deal/funding to realize the project any further. Would Skel or DocMcoy have any ideas? From what I remember one or both of you have worked in related fields?

Any feedback is appreciated.

 

[james]

I'm not a UK head, but I am a semi-frequent used-bookstore head, and I have seen many, many volumes that cover very much the same territory you're talking about. Some of them are by academic dudes who are trying to get all hip-hop, and some are by hip-hop dudes who are trying to get all academic, but they are almost all pretty excruciating, they almost all (no offense) read like college dissertations that someone's been sitting on, and they are--as I mentioned--many many.





I'm not trying to be harsh, but I know a lot of folks here can vouch that there's already an awfully big pile of this stuff out there, you know? Before you take something like that to market, you should make sure you've really got some shit.





In any case, best of luck with the move and the work.

 

[Horseleech]

james said:I'm not trying to be harsh, but I know a lot of folks here can vouch that there's already an awfully big pile of this stuff out there, you know? Before you take something like that to market, you should make sure you've really got some shit.




This was my first thought as well. I would take a good hard look at what's already been done and see if you can offer something new. If not, I think you would have a hard time getting a publisher to be interested.

 

[Gibbo]

Cool. I've been discussing furthering my academic career with some heads back here and would like to pursue it at some point. I mentioned that this (the subject of my dissertation) was something I specialised in. They said it was something I should think of pursuing. I remember at the time of writing it that I really had to cut the arse out it to make it fit the colleges word count/scope of subject. I went back and read it and was surprised at the stuff I'd unearthed.





I haven't checked for a book on the subject matter in a long time but remember that there wasn't anything that gathered all the info 'I' would have liked to have seen in one place. Is there any books I could check out? (I remember one called 'The Ambient Century' that I was particularly impressed with). I always assumed the publishing scene was a little dead myself (i.e. who reads books anymore with all the other distractions out there).





Anyway I just wanted to get a little perspective on it. No need to apologise for criticisms, I'm pretty thick skinned. Like I said I'm using the move to try and eject myself from a bit of a rut so any and all suggestions welcome.

 

[skel]

I suspect such a tome's audience is those who sample and may have a curiosity as to how strands link together?





I've read a lot of books covering genres that I felt I had a special handle on, and not one of them managed to capture the essence as I saw it.





This is almost certainly true for any fanboy. The boy Pattrick on here is in the midst of a dissertation on the 90s j/f/s bootleg scene and has an interesting angle on how to turn ideas into a cohesive narrative with a unique twist.

 

[Gibbo]

skel said:I suspect such a tome's audience is those who sample and may have a curiosity as to how strands link together?





I've read a lot of books covering genres that I felt I had a special handle on, and not one of them managed to capture the essence as I saw it.





This is almost certainly true for any fanboy. The boy Pattrick on here is in the midst of a dissertation on the 90s j/f/s bootleg scene and has an interesting angle on how to turn ideas into a cohesive narrative with a unique twist.




This was basically my take on it. Lots of different texts had some decent content but failed to link it up in any meaningful way or did so in a very obvious/pedestrian way. Basically the bones of what I have and what I would like to pursue is something that will be in depth enough for the type of aficionado that resides on the strut but would also appeal to the casual reader (I'm aware that's one hell of a tightrope to traverse and you would need a very sympathetic publisher/editor to guide the process). All the while not descending into some watered down B.S.





In all my previous research (dated though now it is, I've no idea what's been published in the last few years) I never came across such a text and thought it was a void I could fill. Obviously I'm just kicking around some ideas/looking for opinions. I won't feel right until the Harvey/Batmon tag-team interject to tell me how shit the idea is (I jest, I hope, I honestly wouldn't have come on here expecting sugar coated responses).

 

[james]

Gibbo said:any books I could check out?

Well, I mean, David Toop has a couple, and even something as simple as searching Amazon.com for "sample culture" nets several more. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.





It's also worth remembering that in the saturation of the post-internet age, a lot of the ideas that used to be novel and/or used to be solely the province of academia have become pretty thoroughly mainstreamed and subsequently somewhat devalued. Stockhausen begets Kraftwerk begets "Planet Rock" begets Bomb Squad begets De La Soul begets Further Reading might have blown minds and sold actual books back in the 90s (I know I bought a number of them myself), but it's since trickled down to become cliche at best .





I'm curious: What kind of music writing have you been reading/doing these years since?

 

[Gibbo]

Toop's 'Rap Attack' was definitely memorable and would cover some of the same ground. Although I would agree with you that the premise for such a book as I'm proposing has probably been done to death. But as Skel pointed out it's the 'essence capturing' part I always felt was lacking.





As for my own background I spent that last few years immersing myself in all the great European/American tomes from the last couple of hundred years that I never made time to read before (reading that back definitely makes me sound like an arsehole, but I'm alright I promise) all the while balancing that with a career in education (I've worked in a few different areas mainly primary/secondary school teaching) with a dash of working in disadvantaged areas with 'at-risk' youths. But as with any recession these are the first areas to be hit by cutbacks so I've found myself having to migrate back to the U.K. (I lived there for a few years in my early-mid twenties) so the plan is to see if the job market is any better. I'm determined to give it a shot but won't know what the story is until I've spent a bit of time back there.





I guess this thread was to try and gauge if there's an appetite for such a book and I felt I was always sitting on the bones of one. The hard part is trying to reconcile all the various strands it would encompass without watering it down. Either that or go the Flann O'Brien route and write a work of fiction populated by talking MPC's.

 

[Possum Slim]

Not quite answering your question but I have experience of the English secondary system before I left it to move home and set up my own business. Wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a career but happy to answer any questions if you end up going down that route.





Bookwise I'd find it hard to believe this kind of thing has been covered extensively over the years but one direction you could take it in to make it marketable may be to go down the the coffee table route like the recent private press book and try to tap into the "resurgence of vinyl culture" mentality.

 

[vintageinfants]

SP 1200 said:Bookwise I'd find it hard to believe this kind of thing has been covered extensively over the years but one direction you could take it in to make it marketable may be to go down the the coffee table route like the recent private press book and try to tap into the "resurgence of vinyl culture" mentality.




echo'ing what james has said, yes i have seen a book of this ilk many times over and no, i have never read one that accurately expounds on the mindset impact of the actual participants of "the scene".





i guess all that proves is that it is actually kind of easy to get that book published, and with very little need for authentication. so from a business standpoint i'd say it's a pretty good decision, but if you're looking for the approval of your peers it may not be.

 

[Horseleech]

SP 1200 said:Bookwise I'd find it hard to believe this kind of thing has been covered extensively over the years but one direction you could take it in to make it marketable may be to go down the the coffee table route like the recent private press book and try to tap into the "resurgence of vinyl culture" mentality.




If you could combine it with a CD/LP release of relevant material and get a tastemeker or two to weigh in, that could put it over the top.





That's a whole 'nother level of project, though.

 

[bennyboy]

Another route, and I have friends that have done this fairly succesfully, is to self publish, and sell it yourself. Lots of great platforms out there for creating very nice books, for not huge amounts. Make it something that looks good as well as reads well, and it might be an enjoyable project. Although plenty of work, thats for sure.

 

[Possum Slim]

My apologies, I meant to type that I find it hard that this kind of thing hasn't been covered extensively already over the years.

 

[Gibbo]

Thanks folks a lot of valid points some that I'd considered and some that I had not.





I guess my angle would be and a bunch of folks have touched on it is that although the subject has been done to death that a lot of what has been written seems to lack authenticity or fails to capture the vibe of 'sample culture' (for some reason I just shuddered as I typed that). I feel it's a very easy trap to fall into.





Another would be the scope of such a project. Obviously the bones of what I have would only amount to sixty pages or so and I've already highlighted a couple of areas that due to various constraints I wasn't able to delve into. In fact from what I remember the original dissertation tracks the roots in the avant garde scene from the early twentieth century through the rock/pop scene up to the early eighties and then into hip-hop of the eighties and beyond (in fact it's very New York in its scope and would have really benefited from a few more regional additions).





Anyway I guess it's something I should probably turn into a thesis instead





Sorry I neglected to mention that the genesis of the project started while I was studying for a B.A in audio engineering in London around ten years ago and I was the only one studying who'd grown up listening to hip-hop rather than rock. I worked in a major studio for awhile but it's even more of a thankless task than trying to teach English literature to teenagers.





I can definitely empathise with the whole 'doing it justice' as I been heavily involved in the skateboard scene since I was a little kid so I'm fully aware of bandwagon jumpers, vested corporate interests trying to appropriate the 'cool factor' to peddle their shite and the media's utter cluelessness when it comes to presenting it in a matter that doesn't reek of condescension.





Anyway thanks again for tolerating my brain fart.

 

[james]

Gibbo said:I spent that last few years immersing myself in all the great European/American tomes from the last couple of hundred years that I never made time to read before

If you've been deep into literary/novelistic stuff moreso than keeping up with music criticism, you might want to consider checking out Geoffrey O'Brien's Sonata For Jukebox and Dave Tompkins's How To Wreck A Nice Beach. Both of them manage to get across a considerable amount of musical and cultural scholarship and commentary, but do so within frameworks that are heavily literary and personal. They represent, I think, a real interesting path.





Information has become very easy, but true feeling has only gotten harder. "Captur[ing] the vibe," as you say, is ultimately a much tougher, much rarer, and much finer thing than stating the facts or arguing the theories, and I think you're right to focus your energies there.

 

[Gibbo]

If you've been deep into literary/novelistic stuff moreso than keeping up with music criticism, you might want to consider checking out Geoffrey O'Brien's Sonata For Jukebox and Dave Tompkins's How To Wreck A Nice Beach. Both of them manage to get across a considerable amount of musical and cultural scholarship and commentary, but do so within frameworks that are heavily literary and personal. They represent, I think, a real interesting path.





Information has become very easy, but true feeling has only gotten harder. "Captur[ing] the vibe," as you say, is ultimately a much tougher, much rarer, and much finer thing than stating the facts or arguing the theories, and I think you're right to focus your energies there.

I think essentially that's the only consensus that's come across in whole thread 'vibes and stuff'. Or how to write something that 'real headz' will appreciate without alienating a general readership i.e. getting too technical for instance.


I know David Toop delves into a lot of the socio-economic factors that hip-hop was born out of (just as an example I can think off the top of my head) and that can factor into it also.


So basically a lot of food for thought and some avenues that could well be worthy of exploration. Thanks again.