ENGLAND
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sabadabada saidOR said:sabadabada said
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
You wrote a single post only saying "I'd say they are more the end product of all that multi-culti bullshit."
Followed up with "its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically".
I'm just saying. You are not talking about poor whites from Russia or the Irish who are "not assimilating" (Whatever that means) who are living in these communities. You should have just stuck to the whole welfare is bullshit deal instead of bringing up multiculturalism.
For the most part these kids rioting are not kids who are having difficulty being British or some shit...
From the Telegraph
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100100087/london-riots-this-is-what-happens-when-multiculturalists-turn-a-blind-eye-to-gang-culture/
The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let???s just focus on one: the way Britain???s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It???s violent, it???s sexist, it???s homophobic and it???s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers ??? and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children???s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We are seeing a lot of black faces on our screens tonight; it???s a shame that the spotlight can???t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible.
Just because you found someone who agrees with your opinion. Doesn't mean you both aren't full of shit...
Right back at ya.
If you read that and don't get a sense of why it's
1. Pretty racist
2. Pretty stupid
I can't help ya.
DB_Cooper said:ketan said: It's one of the few key reasons that I'm happier in Toronto than I was in LA.
The other main reason being that the other option was LA.
Ha!
But seriously, LA is the spot for so. many. reasons.
Including that there is a similar (and sort of ideal) approach to multiculturalism as in Toronto...
The other main reason being that the other option was LA.
Ha!
But seriously, LA is the spot for so. many. reasons.
Including that there is a similar (and sort of ideal) approach to multiculturalism as in Toronto...
ketan saidB_Cooper said:ketan said: It's one of the few key reasons that I'm happier in Toronto than I was in LA.
The other main reason being that the other option was LA.
Ha!
But seriously, LA is the spot for so. many. reasons.
Including that there is a similar (and sort of ideal) approach to multiculturalism as in Toronto...
Yup. It ain't perfect - you know, the way nothing is - but for those who say it's not working...total bullshit.
B_Cooper said:ketan said: It's one of the few key reasons that I'm happier in Toronto than I was in LA.The other main reason being that the other option was LA.
Ha!
But seriously, LA is the spot for so. many. reasons.
Including that there is a similar (and sort of ideal) approach to multiculturalism as in Toronto...
Yup. It ain't perfect - you know, the way nothing is - but for those who say it's not working...total bullshit.
Segregation is the cause. Minorities in England and Europe have gone through similar histories as those in the U.S. In the U.S. modern ghettos were produced by post-war segregation, not the welfare state. During WWII thousands of blacks moved to the urban centers of the south or to the north and west for war jobs. They got high paying war jobs and were able to move into the middle class. Towards 1944 defense industries began closing down and they were the first fired. The white middle and working class also began moving to the suburbs for brand new homes. Almost every suburb had de facto segregation through housing covenants and home owners associations. They were also supported by federal home loan policies that would only give loans to families moving into neighborhoods of the same race and class. Businesses began leaving the cities for the suburbs and eventually for overseas in the following decades. The economic base of most big cities therefore declined as the tax base - the white middle class and businesses - went to the suburbs, while blacks were trapped by segregation in deteriorating urban centers that quickly became ghettos. The war generation of blacks were largely able to maintain their middle class status but their kids faced 50% unemployment in most cases, and they and their children became what's called "the underclass."
Also stereotypes of the American poor break down against specific data. Latinos for example are the poorest group in California. They have the highest drop out rates, the lowest percentage of college graduates. At the same time they have the highest rate of marriage, have a higher percentage working in the private sector than any other group in the state, and lower welfare rates than blacks. Also in some Bay Area counties Asians have the highest percentage on welfare. Of course in just pure numbers, there are more poor whites on welfare than any other group since whites are 70% of the U.S. population, so if you follow the stereotype than the welfare state is really creating a bunch of lazy white people.
Also stereotypes of the American poor break down against specific data. Latinos for example are the poorest group in California. They have the highest drop out rates, the lowest percentage of college graduates. At the same time they have the highest rate of marriage, have a higher percentage working in the private sector than any other group in the state, and lower welfare rates than blacks. Also in some Bay Area counties Asians have the highest percentage on welfare. Of course in just pure numbers, there are more poor whites on welfare than any other group since whites are 70% of the U.S. population, so if you follow the stereotype than the welfare state is really creating a bunch of lazy white people.
the Sikhs are on point. they've set up facebook pages to mobilize support if any of their temples or businesses are attacked. fair play to 'em.
motown67 said: Also stereotypes of the American poor break down against specific data. Latinos for example are the poorest group in California. They have the highest drop out rates, the lowest percentage of college graduates. At the same time they have the highest rate of marriage, have a higher percentage working in the private sector than any other group in the state, and lower welfare rates than blacks.
Yeah, there's something to be said for "social capital/cohesion". Foreign-born Latino's in the U.S. have paradoxically better health than their income level/socioeconomic position would predict. But this (fascinating) study suggests that the health advantage they enjoy (in terms of respiratory health) is only present when they live in immigrant-rich neighbourhoods - see figure 1. If they're in mixed neighbourhoods, they have as poor respiratory health as Americans.
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/919.pdf
And please don't think that I'm advocating for the segregation of immgrant populations by sharing this.
Yeah, there's something to be said for "social capital/cohesion". Foreign-born Latino's in the U.S. have paradoxically better health than their income level/socioeconomic position would predict. But this (fascinating) study suggests that the health advantage they enjoy (in terms of respiratory health) is only present when they live in immigrant-rich neighbourhoods - see figure 1. If they're in mixed neighbourhoods, they have as poor respiratory health as Americans.
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/919.pdf
And please don't think that I'm advocating for the segregation of immgrant populations by sharing this.
Almond saidOR said:SportCasual said:Looks like they are embracing gang culture.
Just protecting their turf...
Many of those swords appear to be ceremonial. My grandma has one.
Irony? And well, um, let's just say some of them do get put to use from time to time, in the UK at least.
OR said:SportCasual said:Looks like they are embracing gang culture.Just protecting their turf...
Many of those swords appear to be ceremonial. My grandma has one.
Irony? And well, um, let's just say some of them do get put to use from time to time, in the UK at least.
DOR said:sabadabada said:
It's not that the population is "mixed," its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically.
Umm. Most of the are kids were born in the 90's. They never chose where they live. Just like they didn't choose to be poor.
Just because they are brown. Does not mean they are immigrants... I'm betting most of these kids families have been in the UK for 40+ years. Many probably over 100.
"product of all that multi-culti bullshit"
Your statement seems to imply that the UK would be way better off if they had just left all those brown people in the countries Britain tended to have their way with for hundreds of years.
Multiculturalism has more or less been a success in my country. The people who believe it's "bullshit" tend to be 9 out of 10 times racist IMO.
And I think maybe the point The_Hook_Up was trying to make. Is that for all your "multi-culti bullshit". The music you seem to idolize is from the direct result of many cultures coming together. Both "culturally and economically". You think the music was from cultures mixing with no riots or poor people getting taken advantage of and rising up?
exactly the point I was trying to make...granted, my only foray into Brazilian history was Caetano's "Tropical Truth"...but DOR articulated my sentimnent much better than I.
It's not that the population is "mixed," its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically.
Umm. Most of the are kids were born in the 90's. They never chose where they live. Just like they didn't choose to be poor.
Just because they are brown. Does not mean they are immigrants... I'm betting most of these kids families have been in the UK for 40+ years. Many probably over 100.
"product of all that multi-culti bullshit"
Your statement seems to imply that the UK would be way better off if they had just left all those brown people in the countries Britain tended to have their way with for hundreds of years.
Multiculturalism has more or less been a success in my country. The people who believe it's "bullshit" tend to be 9 out of 10 times racist IMO.
And I think maybe the point The_Hook_Up was trying to make. Is that for all your "multi-culti bullshit". The music you seem to idolize is from the direct result of many cultures coming together. Both "culturally and economically". You think the music was from cultures mixing with no riots or poor people getting taken advantage of and rising up?
exactly the point I was trying to make...granted, my only foray into Brazilian history was Caetano's "Tropical Truth"...but DOR articulated my sentimnent much better than I.
The_Hook_Up saidOR said:sabadabada said:
It's not that the population is "mixed," its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically.
Umm. Most of the are kids were born in the 90's. They never chose where they live. Just like they didn't choose to be poor.
Just because they are brown. Does not mean they are immigrants... I'm betting most of these kids families have been in the UK for 40+ years. Many probably over 100.
"product of all that multi-culti bullshit"
Your statement seems to imply that the UK would be way better off if they had just left all those brown people in the countries Britain tended to have their way with for hundreds of years.
Multiculturalism has more or less been a success in my country. The people who believe it's "bullshit" tend to be 9 out of 10 times racist IMO.
And I think maybe the point The_Hook_Up was trying to make. Is that for all your "multi-culti bullshit". The music you seem to idolize is from the direct result of many cultures coming together. Both "culturally and economically". You think the music was from cultures mixing with no riots or poor people getting taken advantage of and rising up?
exactly the point I was trying to make...granted, my only foray into Brazilian history was Caetano's "Tropical Truth"...but DOR articulated my sentiment much better than I.
DOR is my dude.
Generally speaking, when a difference of opinions happens, I am not really interested in changing people's minds; it takes away from the quality of discourse when the main objective is about strong-arming the next person, no matter how factual, measured and eloquent.
Whether Saba sees it different or not, that's for him and his life to figure out. I am just happy he doesn't stoop to the level he used to - hurrah for fatherhood.
But the bigger deal and outcome for these threads on the Board is that there are really good moments of perspective and ideas that shine through.
OR said:sabadabada said:It's not that the population is "mixed," its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically.
Umm. Most of the are kids were born in the 90's. They never chose where they live. Just like they didn't choose to be poor.
Just because they are brown. Does not mean they are immigrants... I'm betting most of these kids families have been in the UK for 40+ years. Many probably over 100.
"product of all that multi-culti bullshit"
Your statement seems to imply that the UK would be way better off if they had just left all those brown people in the countries Britain tended to have their way with for hundreds of years.
Multiculturalism has more or less been a success in my country. The people who believe it's "bullshit" tend to be 9 out of 10 times racist IMO.
And I think maybe the point The_Hook_Up was trying to make. Is that for all your "multi-culti bullshit". The music you seem to idolize is from the direct result of many cultures coming together. Both "culturally and economically". You think the music was from cultures mixing with no riots or poor people getting taken advantage of and rising up?
exactly the point I was trying to make...granted, my only foray into Brazilian history was Caetano's "Tropical Truth"...but DOR articulated my sentiment much better than I.
DOR is my dude.
Generally speaking, when a difference of opinions happens, I am not really interested in changing people's minds; it takes away from the quality of discourse when the main objective is about strong-arming the next person, no matter how factual, measured and eloquent.
Whether Saba sees it different or not, that's for him and his life to figure out. I am just happy he doesn't stoop to the level he used to - hurrah for fatherhood.
But the bigger deal and outcome for these threads on the Board is that there are really good moments of perspective and ideas that shine through.
To relate the American experience to England and Europe, most of the modern immigration to western Europe was the result of WWII. After the war millions were dead, displaced, and the place was destroyed. That led to a huge labor shortage, which was filled by Europe looking to its colonies to bring in foreign workers. That went from the mid-1940s to 1960s. Most countries didn't expect these people to stay after the work was done but they did. Not only that but it established traditions of immigration from specific regions and cities in the developing world to the developed. When Europe had recovered it had a growing number of immigrants that they didn't especially want so they were segregated with declining job prospects, similar to blacks being segregated in urban America while jobs were migrating to the suburbs after WWII.
