israel vs the sewer/refuge camp
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Nocentelli said
ocMcCoy said:From the people who brought you Hamas.
ISIS created Hamas? Our they're both muslim groups, so they're one and the same?
DocMcCoy said:ÔÇ£In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ÔÇÿSave Gaza, save Gaza.ÔÇÖ ÔÇØ
So we should forget about Gaza, because people are doing worse elsewhere?
1/ It is widely believed that ISIS receives financial and military support from within Qatar, if not directly from the country's ruling family. Hamas, as we already know, is bankrolled by Qatar. What's beyond doubt about ISIS is that they are violently propagating an extremist, mediaeval form of Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond (see also; Boko Haram and Ansar Dine in Nigeria and Mali respectively), and this makes them a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Palestinian critics of Hamas have claimed that, despite insisting otherwise, its objective is to turn Gaza into an Islamist enclave along the lines of the Taliban rather than that of Turkey.
2 / This isn't just people "doing worse elsewhere" - this is Iraq's oldest and smallest religious minority (regarded by Islamic fundamentalists as "devil worshippers", incidentally) under a very real threat of being wiped out. There are only 130,000 in the entire region, and 40,000 of them are trapped in Sinjar, where they face the choice of starving to death or being slaughtered. This is what genocide actually is. But of course, it's not something that can be conveniently or easily attached to one of the great doctrinaire lefty causes of the age - freedom for Palestine. Nor is it something where blame can be handily laid at the door of Israel or "the Jews". Thus, or so it appears, people who wring their hands about dead Palestinian kids couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered. This is the kind of thing which, if allowed to go ahead, would make the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla look like a cut lip.
Oversimplify my points as much as you like, but don't try to put words in my mouth. You know fuck all about me.
Oh, and by the way, these are for better or worse my own words and my own thoughts, hence the absence of hyperlinks and long transcripts and so on. I'm not trying to claim someone else's argument as my own, nor am I afraid of being wrong on any of the above points. In fact, I'd be happy if I turned out to be wrong about all of it.
ocMcCoy said:From the people who brought you Hamas.ISIS created Hamas? Our they're both muslim groups, so they're one and the same?
DocMcCoy said:ÔÇ£In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ÔÇÿSave Gaza, save Gaza.ÔÇÖ ÔÇØ
So we should forget about Gaza, because people are doing worse elsewhere?
1/ It is widely believed that ISIS receives financial and military support from within Qatar, if not directly from the country's ruling family. Hamas, as we already know, is bankrolled by Qatar. What's beyond doubt about ISIS is that they are violently propagating an extremist, mediaeval form of Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond (see also; Boko Haram and Ansar Dine in Nigeria and Mali respectively), and this makes them a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Palestinian critics of Hamas have claimed that, despite insisting otherwise, its objective is to turn Gaza into an Islamist enclave along the lines of the Taliban rather than that of Turkey.
2 / This isn't just people "doing worse elsewhere" - this is Iraq's oldest and smallest religious minority (regarded by Islamic fundamentalists as "devil worshippers", incidentally) under a very real threat of being wiped out. There are only 130,000 in the entire region, and 40,000 of them are trapped in Sinjar, where they face the choice of starving to death or being slaughtered. This is what genocide actually is. But of course, it's not something that can be conveniently or easily attached to one of the great doctrinaire lefty causes of the age - freedom for Palestine. Nor is it something where blame can be handily laid at the door of Israel or "the Jews". Thus, or so it appears, people who wring their hands about dead Palestinian kids couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered. This is the kind of thing which, if allowed to go ahead, would make the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla look like a cut lip.
Oversimplify my points as much as you like, but don't try to put words in my mouth. You know fuck all about me.
Oh, and by the way, these are for better or worse my own words and my own thoughts, hence the absence of hyperlinks and long transcripts and so on. I'm not trying to claim someone else's argument as my own, nor am I afraid of being wrong on any of the above points. In fact, I'd be happy if I turned out to be wrong about all of it.
Duderonomy said:BigSpliff said:
?
former strutteur who graduated to "neocon" political operative masquerading as a journalist:
"Dubious sources feed national-security reporter Eli Lake a fraudulent story for political purposes ÔÇö once again"
http://harpers.org/blog/2013/08/anatomy-of-an-al-qaeda-conference-call/
"Send It To Lake Right Away!"
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/11/-send-it-to-lake-right-away/193982/
"How Eli Lake Blundered His Daily Beast Benghazi Report"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/11/07/how-eli-lake-blundered-his-daily-beast-benghazi/196778
"Neoconservatives hype a new Cold War"
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/05/neoconservatives_hype_a_new_cold_war/
?
former strutteur who graduated to "neocon" political operative masquerading as a journalist:
"Dubious sources feed national-security reporter Eli Lake a fraudulent story for political purposes ÔÇö once again"
http://harpers.org/blog/2013/08/anatomy-of-an-al-qaeda-conference-call/
"Send It To Lake Right Away!"
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/11/-send-it-to-lake-right-away/193982/
"How Eli Lake Blundered His Daily Beast Benghazi Report"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/11/07/how-eli-lake-blundered-his-daily-beast-benghazi/196778
"Neoconservatives hype a new Cold War"
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/05/neoconservatives_hype_a_new_cold_war/
B
BigSpliff
Guest
crabmongerfunk said:
former strutteur who graduated to "neocon" political operative masquerading as a journalist
Fucking well put. I would add "infamous first person First Nation freestyle rappeur"
And also apparently: Hot Lover
former strutteur who graduated to "neocon" political operative masquerading as a journalist
Fucking well put. I would add "infamous first person First Nation freestyle rappeur"
And also apparently: Hot Lover
Nocentelli saidocMcCoy said:From the people who brought you Hamas.
ISIS created Hamas? Our they're both muslim groups, so they're one and the same?
DocMcCoy said:ÔÇ£In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ÔÇÿSave Gaza, save Gaza.ÔÇÖ ÔÇØ
So we should forget about Gaza, because people are doing worse elsewhere?
DocMcCoy said:
1/ It is widely believed that ISIS receives financial and military support from within Qatar, if not directly from the country's ruling family. Hamas, as we already know, is bankrolled by Qatar. What's beyond doubt about ISIS is that they are violently propagating an extremist, mediaeval form of Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond (see also; Boko Haram and Ansar Dine in Nigeria and Mali respectively), and this makes them a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Palestinian critics of Hamas have claimed that, despite insisting otherwise, its objective is to turn Gaza into an Islamist enclave along the lines of the Taliban rather than that of Turkey.
It is widely belived that muslim chechen rebels (amongst many other "freedom fighters" all over the world, including Afghani and tourist Jihadis) received financial and military support from within the USA, if not directly than from the country's security services. Israel as we already know, is bankrolled by the USA.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/08/usa.russia
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-civil-society-and-cia-financing-of-chechen-and-other-caucasus-regional-terrorists/5333359
Does this make either Israelis', or Palestinian's positions irrelevant? Rich countries around the world will always seek to influence events around the world, and desperate people will accept help wherever it is offered. I was trying to highlight your apparent parroting of Israel's official line - I saw Mark Regev saying this almost word for word on newsnight a week or so ago - That in razing Gaza even further into the dirt, they are merely dealing with exactly the same kind of Islamic Jihadism encountered eleswhere around the world, so what's the problem? This ignores the fact that Gaza is a prison enclave under Israeli control, where Palestinians' only hope for peace is to accept the facts on the ground and resign themselves to forever living in a prison enclave.
DocMcCoy said:
2 / This isn't just people "doing worse elsewhere" - this is Iraq's oldest and smallest religious minority (regarded by Islamic fundamentalists as "devil worshippers", incidentally) under a very real threat of being wiped out. There are only 130,000 in the entire region, and 40,000 of them are trapped in Sinjar, where they face the choice of starving to death or being slaughtered. This is what genocide actually is. But of course, it's not something that can be conveniently or easily attached to one of the great doctrinaire lefty causes of the age - freedom for Palestine. Nor is it something where blame can be handily laid at the door of Israel or "the Jews". Thus, or so it appears, people who wring their hands about dead Palestinian kids couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered. This is the kind of thing which, if allowed to go ahead, would make the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla look like a cut lip.
Oversimplify my points as much as you like, but don't try to put words in my mouth. You know fuck all about me.
I didn't say it was just anything, I certainly wouldn't try to lay the blame for it at the door of Israel, and your suggestion that I or anyone else in this thread who questions Israel's actions "couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered" is a hysterical strawman attack.
The kurds, a people who were being hailed as heroes for retaking areas captured by Isis on the news tonight, were slaughtered in their thousands (that's what genocide actually is) by Saddam Hussain , who had full support from the USA thoughout that time. Saddam portrayed the Kurds as terrorists. History and wikipedia seem to have portrayed them as freedom fighters with control of their own autonomous region, but of course the PKK still are regarded as a terrorist organisation, despite Ocalan's repeated calls for dialogue and an end to conflict. Maybe if they could carve out a genuinely autonomous region, the Palestinians would be regarded as oppressed people who fought for freedom
ocMcCoy said:From the people who brought you Hamas.ISIS created Hamas? Our they're both muslim groups, so they're one and the same?
DocMcCoy said:ÔÇ£In one day, they killed more than two thousand Yazidi in Sinjar, and the whole world says, ÔÇÿSave Gaza, save Gaza.ÔÇÖ ÔÇØ
So we should forget about Gaza, because people are doing worse elsewhere?
DocMcCoy said:
1/ It is widely believed that ISIS receives financial and military support from within Qatar, if not directly from the country's ruling family. Hamas, as we already know, is bankrolled by Qatar. What's beyond doubt about ISIS is that they are violently propagating an extremist, mediaeval form of Wahhabism throughout the region and beyond (see also; Boko Haram and Ansar Dine in Nigeria and Mali respectively), and this makes them a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Palestinian critics of Hamas have claimed that, despite insisting otherwise, its objective is to turn Gaza into an Islamist enclave along the lines of the Taliban rather than that of Turkey.
It is widely belived that muslim chechen rebels (amongst many other "freedom fighters" all over the world, including Afghani and tourist Jihadis) received financial and military support from within the USA, if not directly than from the country's security services. Israel as we already know, is bankrolled by the USA.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/08/usa.russia
http://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-civil-society-and-cia-financing-of-chechen-and-other-caucasus-regional-terrorists/5333359
Does this make either Israelis', or Palestinian's positions irrelevant? Rich countries around the world will always seek to influence events around the world, and desperate people will accept help wherever it is offered. I was trying to highlight your apparent parroting of Israel's official line - I saw Mark Regev saying this almost word for word on newsnight a week or so ago - That in razing Gaza even further into the dirt, they are merely dealing with exactly the same kind of Islamic Jihadism encountered eleswhere around the world, so what's the problem? This ignores the fact that Gaza is a prison enclave under Israeli control, where Palestinians' only hope for peace is to accept the facts on the ground and resign themselves to forever living in a prison enclave.
DocMcCoy said:
2 / This isn't just people "doing worse elsewhere" - this is Iraq's oldest and smallest religious minority (regarded by Islamic fundamentalists as "devil worshippers", incidentally) under a very real threat of being wiped out. There are only 130,000 in the entire region, and 40,000 of them are trapped in Sinjar, where they face the choice of starving to death or being slaughtered. This is what genocide actually is. But of course, it's not something that can be conveniently or easily attached to one of the great doctrinaire lefty causes of the age - freedom for Palestine. Nor is it something where blame can be handily laid at the door of Israel or "the Jews". Thus, or so it appears, people who wring their hands about dead Palestinian kids couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered. This is the kind of thing which, if allowed to go ahead, would make the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla look like a cut lip.
Oversimplify my points as much as you like, but don't try to put words in my mouth. You know fuck all about me.
I didn't say it was just anything, I certainly wouldn't try to lay the blame for it at the door of Israel, and your suggestion that I or anyone else in this thread who questions Israel's actions "couldn't give a fuck about how many thousands of Yazidi, or tens of thousands of them, get butchered" is a hysterical strawman attack.
The kurds, a people who were being hailed as heroes for retaking areas captured by Isis on the news tonight, were slaughtered in their thousands (that's what genocide actually is) by Saddam Hussain , who had full support from the USA thoughout that time. Saddam portrayed the Kurds as terrorists. History and wikipedia seem to have portrayed them as freedom fighters with control of their own autonomous region, but of course the PKK still are regarded as a terrorist organisation, despite Ocalan's repeated calls for dialogue and an end to conflict. Maybe if they could carve out a genuinely autonomous region, the Palestinians would be regarded as oppressed people who fought for freedom
crabmongerfunk saiduderonomy said:BigSpliff said:
?
former strutteur who graduated to "neocon" political operative masquerading as a journalist:
"Dubious sources feed national-security reporter Eli Lake a fraudulent story for political purposes ÔÇö once again"
http://harpers.org/blog/2013/08/anatomy-of-an-al-qaeda-conference-call/
"Send It To Lake Right Away!"
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/11/-send-it-to-lake-right-away/193982/
"How Eli Lake Blundered His Daily Beast Benghazi Report"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/11/07/how-eli-lake-blundered-his-daily-beast-benghazi/196778
"Neoconservatives hype a new Cold War"
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/05/neoconservatives_hype_a_new_cold_war/
Threads like this...
http://www.soulstrut.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/4099/P0/
That kinda bullshit is what got us the world we are in today. And they don't care. The worse it gets, the better it is for them to continue that crap.
uderonomy said:BigSpliff said:
?
former strutteur who graduated to "neocon" political operative masquerading as a journalist:
"Dubious sources feed national-security reporter Eli Lake a fraudulent story for political purposes ÔÇö once again"
http://harpers.org/blog/2013/08/anatomy-of-an-al-qaeda-conference-call/
"Send It To Lake Right Away!"
http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/11/-send-it-to-lake-right-away/193982/
"How Eli Lake Blundered His Daily Beast Benghazi Report"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/11/07/how-eli-lake-blundered-his-daily-beast-benghazi/196778
"Neoconservatives hype a new Cold War"
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/05/neoconservatives_hype_a_new_cold_war/
Threads like this...
http://www.soulstrut.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/4099/P0/
That kinda bullshit is what got us the world we are in today. And they don't care. The worse it gets, the better it is for them to continue that crap.
Will the hamas apologists please return to this thread, Id love to hear your take on the end to the ceasefire and aid going to gaza. Hamas is really knocking it out the park for palestine. Unless youre now preoccupied with ALS icebuckets or some other wack internet stance du jour. Btw im seeing no indignant ten pagers or protests in the streets about hamas' spiritual brethren IS decaptitating kids and selling women into slavery in mosul. Its just no fun without the satisfyingly obvious bad guy targets I suppose...
staxwax said:Will the hamas apologists please return to this thread, Id love to hear your take on the end to the ceasefire and aid going to gaza. Hamas is really knocking it out the park for palestine. Unless youre now preoccupied with ALS icebuckets or some other wack internet stance du jour. Btw im seeing no indignant ten pagers or protests in the streets about hamas' spiritual brethren IS decaptitating kids and selling women into slavery in mosul. Its just no fun without the satisfyingly obvious bad guy targets I suppose...
+1. See also men, women and kids being being buried alive or torn apart between cars for refusing to convert or for being the wrong sort of Muslim.
Tangentially, whilst I have no intention of seeking out the latest bit of ISIS snuff-porn, I am assured from some of the people who've watched it that the guy who decapitated James Foley had a British accent. We're going to have to suck it up when people like him finally return to the UK, whether ISIS is defeated or not. What's needed is for someone in politics to stand up and spell it out: the current situation in Iraq is not us choosing a fight, it is a fight that has picked us, and we have no alternative but to win it. These people are fascists, straight up, and appeasing them will not work. They want to die, and they want to take as many of us with them as they can - in case this hasn't been obvious since, oh, I dunno...September 11th 2001.
In terms of the British Muslim community...well, we've either alienated or failed to integrate huge swathes of them and now jihad is many young Muslims' equivalent of punk or football hooliganism ÔÇô their fuck you to the establishment ÔÇô except it is lavishly financed, heavily armed and sanctions murder. No idea how you address that without solutions most would consider authoritarian and that would give liberals like me conniptions.
There'll be another atrocity in London eventually. Perhap that will concentrate minds.
+1. See also men, women and kids being being buried alive or torn apart between cars for refusing to convert or for being the wrong sort of Muslim.
Tangentially, whilst I have no intention of seeking out the latest bit of ISIS snuff-porn, I am assured from some of the people who've watched it that the guy who decapitated James Foley had a British accent. We're going to have to suck it up when people like him finally return to the UK, whether ISIS is defeated or not. What's needed is for someone in politics to stand up and spell it out: the current situation in Iraq is not us choosing a fight, it is a fight that has picked us, and we have no alternative but to win it. These people are fascists, straight up, and appeasing them will not work. They want to die, and they want to take as many of us with them as they can - in case this hasn't been obvious since, oh, I dunno...September 11th 2001.
In terms of the British Muslim community...well, we've either alienated or failed to integrate huge swathes of them and now jihad is many young Muslims' equivalent of punk or football hooliganism ÔÇô their fuck you to the establishment ÔÇô except it is lavishly financed, heavily armed and sanctions murder. No idea how you address that without solutions most would consider authoritarian and that would give liberals like me conniptions.
There'll be another atrocity in London eventually. Perhap that will concentrate minds.
Well the same is happening all over europe doc - a radicalised dutch turkish kurd fighting with IS was just killed by kurdish forces. He had been posing online with decapitated victims. This was a kid from the suburbs. If these guys end up in anyones backyard, anywhere in the world, there is but one answer. Post war Berlin and the horrors of Hiroshima should serve as a reminder of the ultimate consequences to those who choose to take up arms and seek the destruction of free and open societies by means of terror, intimidation or open warfare.
staxwax said:Will the hamas apologists please return to this thread, Id love to hear your take on the end to the ceasefire and aid going to gaza. Hamas is really knocking it out the park for palestine. Unless youre now preoccupied with ALS icebuckets or some other wack internet stance du jour. Btw im seeing no indignant ten pagers or protests in the streets about hamas' spiritual brethren IS decaptitating kids and selling women into slavery in mosul. Its just no fun without the satisfyingly obvious bad guy targets I suppose...
Rightgeous indignation has moved elsewhere.
Rightgeous indignation has moved elsewhere.
Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
HarveyCanal said:Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
kala said:HarveyCanal said:Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
Rare triple-yup.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
Rare triple-yup.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
LazarusOblong said:kala said:HarveyCanal said:Because people aren't standing up for "Palestine" as a role model utopia. And people aren't standing up for Hamas at all...which is where y'all have it twisted. People are standing up for the civilians of Gaza not to be bombed nor bulldozed by a foreign intruder backed by all the money in the world.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
Rare triple-yup.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
+1
Well said, Harvey.
It's not a cultural war of Islam versus Judaism to us. It's merely a plea to respect borders and international law and again, quit targeting civilians.
yup
Rare triple-yup.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
+1
Well said, Harvey.
HarveyCanal said:quit targeting civilians.
*maybe* you'd be taken seriously on this topic if you directed this admonition at both parties to this conflict.
again, still a big *maybe* considering your past pronouncements on related topics.
though I admire your restraint in not (yet?) injecting international Jewish banking conspiracies into the debate.
(on 2nd thought maybe you already have, and I'm merely giving your "all the money in the world" remark a misplaced benefit of the doubt?)
*maybe* you'd be taken seriously on this topic if you directed this admonition at both parties to this conflict.
again, still a big *maybe* considering your past pronouncements on related topics.
though I admire your restraint in not (yet?) injecting international Jewish banking conspiracies into the debate.
(on 2nd thought maybe you already have, and I'm merely giving your "all the money in the world" remark a misplaced benefit of the doubt?)
LazarusOblong said:
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
can't think of a coherent humanitarian argument for destroying Hamas?
you lack imagination.
There is no coherent humanitarian argument for what Israel is doing here.
can't think of a coherent humanitarian argument for destroying Hamas?
you lack imagination.
rootlesscosmo said:HarveyCanal said:quit targeting civilians.
*maybe* you'd be taken seriously on this topic if you directed this admonition at both parties to this conflict.
again, still a big *maybe* considering your past pronouncements on related topics.
though I admire your restraint in not (yet?) injecting international Jewish banking conspiracies into the debate.
(on 2nd thought maybe you already have, and I'm merely giving your "all the money in the world" remark a misplaced benefit of the doubt?)
seriously
you are a fucking fascist pig moron with head buried deep in bloody sand
how's the view asshole?
*maybe* you'd be taken seriously on this topic if you directed this admonition at both parties to this conflict.
again, still a big *maybe* considering your past pronouncements on related topics.
though I admire your restraint in not (yet?) injecting international Jewish banking conspiracies into the debate.
(on 2nd thought maybe you already have, and I'm merely giving your "all the money in the world" remark a misplaced benefit of the doubt?)
seriously
you are a fucking fascist pig moron with head buried deep in bloody sand
how's the view asshole?
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