I've said it before, and it's worth repeating now - Griff was good no matter where you put him or what label he was recording for or what year it was. The only time I thought he was really going through the motions was on his early seventies Groove Merchant albums. If the GM records were all we had to go by, then I'd be ranking him way below Duff...
McDuff or McGriff ?
- Thread starter Strider79it
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I've said it before, and it's worth repeating now - Griff was good no matter where you put him or what label he was recording for or what year it was. The only time I thought he was really going through the motions was on his early seventies Groove Merchant albums. If the GM records were all we had to go by, then I'd be ranking him way below Duff...
pickwick33 said:funky16corners said:Both indispensable, but I'd have to say that McDuff gets it for going all progressive late in the game. McGriff also did some good, funky stuff, but McDuff got further out.
F-16, what albums did McDuff get "far out" on? The most recent thing I remember seeing on him is some cheesy-looking LP he did for Sugarhill - the rap label - in the eighties. Seems like the Jazz Record Mart in Chicago had a bunch of those piling up by the door for a dollar a head, ten-fifteen years ago.
(Good to have you back, BTW...)
I like "Made in Sweden" off the Moon rappin' Lp for McDuff's experimental side. McDuff stretched out more often than McGriff with many 6-10 min tracks on the Moon Rappin', Heatin' Sytem, Magnetic Feel and Fourth Dimension LPs.
a nice exception (poor sound):
F-16, what albums did McDuff get "far out" on? The most recent thing I remember seeing on him is some cheesy-looking LP he did for Sugarhill - the rap label - in the eighties. Seems like the Jazz Record Mart in Chicago had a bunch of those piling up by the door for a dollar a head, ten-fifteen years ago.
(Good to have you back, BTW...)
I like "Made in Sweden" off the Moon rappin' Lp for McDuff's experimental side. McDuff stretched out more often than McGriff with many 6-10 min tracks on the Moon Rappin', Heatin' Sytem, Magnetic Feel and Fourth Dimension LPs.
a nice exception (poor sound):
pickwick33 said:
... Griff was good no matter where you put him or what label he was recording for or what year it was. ..
that's because he was an outstanding rhythm player... Jack was more of a soloist but I tend to agree that McD late 70's albums for Cadet are more rewarding than Jimmy stuff of the same years
... Griff was good no matter where you put him or what label he was recording for or what year it was. ..
that's because he was an outstanding rhythm player... Jack was more of a soloist but I tend to agree that McD late 70's albums for Cadet are more rewarding than Jimmy stuff of the same years
I couldn't choose, either. Soul Sugar and Electric Funk Vs. Moon Rappin and Down Home Style? Dudes are filed side by side. Moon Rappin' is such sickness, Joe Dukes kicks it on that album.
i just thought about this real hard and i think the edge definitely has to go to McDuff. For one thing, he made the scene earlier and was more of a pioneer. He recorded great albums for Prestige, Atlantic, Blue Note, and Cadet. And that's not to mention his work with the young George Benson, which I will always have a soft spot for.
That said, McGriff definitely has a handful of awesome records that are staples of my collection. To rank him below Brother Jack is no slight on him. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff.
Lastly... while, in terms of overall career achievement, McDuff is pretty much the undeniable winner, both guys were definitely masters of their instrument and of the 'soul-jazz' style, and it would certainly be fair to say you prefer one's playing style over the other. Both are in the realm of mastery where it doesn't really make sense to argue who was a better organ player- it just comes down to personal preference. As for that, I would really have to sit down and listen hard to decide whose playing style I like better. man do i wish i had time to do that...
That said, McGriff definitely has a handful of awesome records that are staples of my collection. To rank him below Brother Jack is no slight on him. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff.
Lastly... while, in terms of overall career achievement, McDuff is pretty much the undeniable winner, both guys were definitely masters of their instrument and of the 'soul-jazz' style, and it would certainly be fair to say you prefer one's playing style over the other. Both are in the realm of mastery where it doesn't really make sense to argue who was a better organ player- it just comes down to personal preference. As for that, I would really have to sit down and listen hard to decide whose playing style I like better. man do i wish i had time to do that...
tabira said:leisurebandit said:. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff. .
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
leisurebandit said:tabira said:leisurebandit said:. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff. .
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
funky16corners said:leisurebandit said:tabira said:leisurebandit said:. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff. .
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
yep. he was was a proto fusion pioneer like Miles, only it was doubly wierd cos it was the organ - jumping from soul jazz to progressive seemingly in one step when most others were going the other way towards pop covers
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
yep. he was was a proto fusion pioneer like Miles, only it was doubly wierd cos it was the organ - jumping from soul jazz to progressive seemingly in one step when most others were going the other way towards pop covers
When F16 mentioned McDuff going on avant-garde tangents, Larry Young was the first name I thought of. I'm surprised more organists didn't follow his lead.
funky16corners said:leisurebandit said:tabira said:leisurebandit said:. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff. .
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
hell yes! he's definitely my favorite organist. the stuff i was saying before was more of a historical-significance-type argument. sadly, it seems like Young was playing above a lot of peoples' heads and is thus relegated to a footnote in many B3 discussions. Unity is some desert island shit for me though. but now the thread is getting hijacked ...
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
hell yes! he's definitely my favorite organist. the stuff i was saying before was more of a historical-significance-type argument. sadly, it seems like Young was playing above a lot of peoples' heads and is thus relegated to a footnote in many B3 discussions. Unity is some desert island shit for me though. but now the thread is getting hijacked ...
leisurebandit said:funky16corners said:leisurebandit said:tabira said:leisurebandit said:. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff. .
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
hell yes! he's definitely my favorite organist. the stuff i was saying before was more of a historical-significance-type argument. sadly, it seems like Young was playing above a lot of peoples' heads and is thus relegated to a footnote in many B3 discussions. Unity is some desert island shit for me though. but now the thread is getting hijacked ...
Young basically took the organ in the same direction as the post-bop, Blue Note stable, treading just on the edge of "out". The really shocking thing to me has always been that no one else (that I'm aware of, I'm sure there was someone out there) was doing a similar thing.
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
hell yes! he's definitely my favorite organist. the stuff i was saying before was more of a historical-significance-type argument. sadly, it seems like Young was playing above a lot of peoples' heads and is thus relegated to a footnote in many B3 discussions. Unity is some desert island shit for me though. but now the thread is getting hijacked ...
Young basically took the organ in the same direction as the post-bop, Blue Note stable, treading just on the edge of "out". The really shocking thing to me has always been that no one else (that I'm aware of, I'm sure there was someone out there) was doing a similar thing.
Question for y'all. I've read a lot of forum discussions on jazz organists and in most of them you get the obligatory respectful reference to "the master" Jimmy Smith almost as if to get him out of the way. The passion seems to be reserved for the Youngs, Pattons, McDuffs and McGriffs etc. You feelin' that too or not?
tabira said:Question for y'all. I've read a lot of forum discussions on jazz organists and in most of them you get the obligatory respectful reference to "the master" Jimmy Smith almost as if to get him out of the way. The passion seems to be reserved for the Youngs, Pattons, McDuffs and McGriffs etc. You feelin' that too or not?
Smith gets props for being the breakout guy on the jazz organ (not the first by far, behind Fats Waller, Milt Buckner, Wild Bill Davis), and he had serious chops, but he spent a lot of prime time recording second-rate stuff for Verve, eventually being passed by guys like McDuff, McGriff, Lonnie Smith and Larry Young,
Smith gets props for being the breakout guy on the jazz organ (not the first by far, behind Fats Waller, Milt Buckner, Wild Bill Davis), and he had serious chops, but he spent a lot of prime time recording second-rate stuff for Verve, eventually being passed by guys like McDuff, McGriff, Lonnie Smith and Larry Young,
Re: Larry Young - that guy was in his own zone when it came to approaching the organ.
I'm listening to "Heaven On Earth" now. It's not one of his best LPs, but I keep it because of the fantastic, brooding 9 minute track "The Hereafter" (young G. Benson in fine form here too).
The funny thing is, there's a track on the same album called "The Infant" which is a more traditional Blue Note/Prestige/Atlantic funky soul-jazz tune a la McGriff etc., and it's striking how pedestrian it sounds compared to "The Hereafter". It's just not his element and it's evident that he was way beyond the "organ burner" thing.
I don't mind a good, simple jam that just cooks, but I wish more organ players would have stretched out like Young. And I always thought it would have been interesting to hear some of the innovative piano/keyboard players from that time try to do some crazy stuff with the organ as well.
I'm listening to "Heaven On Earth" now. It's not one of his best LPs, but I keep it because of the fantastic, brooding 9 minute track "The Hereafter" (young G. Benson in fine form here too).
The funny thing is, there's a track on the same album called "The Infant" which is a more traditional Blue Note/Prestige/Atlantic funky soul-jazz tune a la McGriff etc., and it's striking how pedestrian it sounds compared to "The Hereafter". It's just not his element and it's evident that he was way beyond the "organ burner" thing.
I don't mind a good, simple jam that just cooks, but I wish more organ players would have stretched out like Young. And I always thought it would have been interesting to hear some of the innovative piano/keyboard players from that time try to do some crazy stuff with the organ as well.
funky16corners said:tabira said:Question for y'all. I've read a lot of forum discussions on jazz organists and in most of them you get the obligatory respectful reference to "the master" Jimmy Smith almost as if to get him out of the way. The passion seems to be reserved for the Youngs, Pattons, McDuffs and McGriffs etc. You feelin' that too or not?
Smith gets props for being the breakout guy on the jazz organ (not the first by far, behind Fats Waller, Milt Buckner, Wild Bill Davis), and he had serious chops, but he spent a lot of prime time recording second-rate stuff for Verve, eventually being passed by guys like McDuff, McGriff, Lonnie Smith and Larry Young,
Jimmy Smith could jam his ass off, but I always thought he was slightly overrated. One of those cats I respect more than I actually listen to. The chops were there, but the songs weren't. Yeah, if you want to work up a sweat playing air organ, you could just throw on a Smith LP and go to town, but speaking for myself there's not much there I want to LISTEN to. Lotta flashy looka-here riffs, but that wears off quick. As opposed to McGriff, who wasn't trying to "floorshow," he just said what needed to be said. And when the dust clears, McGriff makes his way to my turntable more times than Smith does.
For me it breaks down like this:
Jimmy on Blue Note - generic, serviceable blues jams. Not unlistenable, but it does tend to recede into the background
Jimmy on Verve - here comes Oliver Nelson with his overdone horn arrangements. Yikes. Starts to get more and more into "soul Muzak" territory, and you can hear why organ jazz was soon taken for granted. (There was a Harvey Pekar cartoon which talked about how he got started writing about jazz; one panel shows a 1960's-era Pekar with an album in his hand, cussing Down Beat magazine for sending him yet another organ record, the likes of which were ubiquitous back then.)
Smith gets props for being the breakout guy on the jazz organ (not the first by far, behind Fats Waller, Milt Buckner, Wild Bill Davis), and he had serious chops, but he spent a lot of prime time recording second-rate stuff for Verve, eventually being passed by guys like McDuff, McGriff, Lonnie Smith and Larry Young,
Jimmy Smith could jam his ass off, but I always thought he was slightly overrated. One of those cats I respect more than I actually listen to. The chops were there, but the songs weren't. Yeah, if you want to work up a sweat playing air organ, you could just throw on a Smith LP and go to town, but speaking for myself there's not much there I want to LISTEN to. Lotta flashy looka-here riffs, but that wears off quick. As opposed to McGriff, who wasn't trying to "floorshow," he just said what needed to be said. And when the dust clears, McGriff makes his way to my turntable more times than Smith does.
For me it breaks down like this:
Jimmy on Blue Note - generic, serviceable blues jams. Not unlistenable, but it does tend to recede into the background
Jimmy on Verve - here comes Oliver Nelson with his overdone horn arrangements. Yikes. Starts to get more and more into "soul Muzak" territory, and you can hear why organ jazz was soon taken for granted. (There was a Harvey Pekar cartoon which talked about how he got started writing about jazz; one panel shows a 1960's-era Pekar with an album in his hand, cussing Down Beat magazine for sending him yet another organ record, the likes of which were ubiquitous back then.)
like F16 said, Jimmy Smith is often considered the innovator... he made the organ combo popular in the late 50's...
but by the time it was the 60's a yo had plethora of organists whose jams were so much more rewarding to listen to....
to me Leon Spencer had the best basslines, Charles Earland was the more "rock" oriented experimenting with wah wah pedals and such, Caesar Frazier was the underrated talent of the day, Lonnie Smith had (and still has) the most spirited, soulful style while Larry Young was of course, the Coltrane of the bunch...Patton was essentially a blues organist while Don Patterson a real bopper...and so on
however IMHO none of them had the grit of Jack McDuff and Jimmy McGriff... that's why I thought to compare the two
but by the time it was the 60's a yo had plethora of organists whose jams were so much more rewarding to listen to....
to me Leon Spencer had the best basslines, Charles Earland was the more "rock" oriented experimenting with wah wah pedals and such, Caesar Frazier was the underrated talent of the day, Lonnie Smith had (and still has) the most spirited, soulful style while Larry Young was of course, the Coltrane of the bunch...Patton was essentially a blues organist while Don Patterson a real bopper...and so on
however IMHO none of them had the grit of Jack McDuff and Jimmy McGriff... that's why I thought to compare the two
for progressive 67-69 organ playing, id mention brian auger, did the soul jazz/ blue note steez playing up through the mid 60s, but became more jazz meets rock towards the later 60s, check his definitely what track on the album by the same name with the trinity group from 1968 on polydor..
couldnt find it on youtube, so this will do
couldnt find it on youtube, so this will do
