reposted from fb, 25 albums that shaped your life

I have really put off reading this thread because I have been putting off writing in this thread - which is something I need to do. But James, Nick told me about your take on New Radicals (one of my all time favorite records and one that would easily make my 25) was absolutely perfect.
 
Garbage ??? Bleed Like Me
Straight-up raw-power brass-knuckle test-tube modern-pop-radio shit. Like I said earlier, great artists create for a great audience, and as much as I love my independents and my obscurities, there is a potency and a hunger in music like this???music that???s hell-bent on getting heard by everybody???that I cannot get from my beloved failers. There is much to be said for music that challenges and surprises, but there???s also a lot to be said for the compressed telepathy that only really occurs in pop music: just when you want to hear the chorus again, there it is; you want the guitar to come up a little, and here it comes; you need something different, and a chord change flowers. There are worse things and there are better things, but there really is nothing quite like that completed circuit. As calculated and as scrubbed-clean and as fake-dangerous as this record may be, as much as I know it???s mostly a musical science experiment, I cannot deny it.

If I may be allowed to posit a post-Hegelian counter-argument on your point of "creating for an audience." (Because seriously, what's the point in "huge co-sign"-ing and "word"-ing and "truth"-ing and "that's my dude"-ing one another here? It's a bit like knocking on an open door, no?) Besides, I really enjoy reading what you write and, if nothing else, this may allow me to read more.

I can't say I remember anything about Garbage except that I preferred not hearing them, so my theories may be weak as they extend to Garbage specifically. Luckily, my anti-audience argument is not specific to Garbage. Actually, not that I've done it, but I would suppose I have more of those Garbage-type records (popular/audience pleasing) than the "failers" you describe. I'm thrilled to no end by popular music, and this isn't an either/or argument.

Just so there's no misconception that I am coming into this otherwise beautiful thread just to sling mud, let me use your suggestion as an example and add an item to my list of Records That Have Shaped My Adult Life.





13_Blues_for_Thirteen_Moons.jpg


Thee Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La Band - 13 Blues For Thirteen Moons (Constellation Records, 2008)


Joan Acocella, in her book, Twenty-eight Artists and Two Saints, talks about the open relationship between Simone de Beauvoir and Sartre, specifically their transparent, analytical, objective approach, which was Sartre's design. Sartre was short, had a walleye and a nervous tic that made him roll his eyes and shrug his shoulders constantly. He could not get chicks. Beauvoir, on the other hand, was a proto-dimepiece. This open relationship, then, served him more than her.

Consider the mother of feminism in a relationship where she not only has to listen to her partner's exploits, but she must analyze her feelings about the dalliance and debrief with Sartre. Not only that, but while she was working on The Second Sex, Beauvoir was corralling her female students to be Sartre's lovers, a practice she was fired for. Speaking as someone who has undying love for Beauvoir (how can you not love someone with the stones to write a 4 volume autobiography?), it's a lot to reconcile. It demonstrates those beliefs that we can't admit, but that are embodied in our knowledge. Edie Brickell was onto something:

"I'm not aware of too many things / but I know what I know if you know what I mean."

Freud was too, in Civilization and Its Discontents.


This record, 13 Blues, is kinda my Sartre. It's got it's tics. It complexly delivers both Nausea and The Roads to Freedom.

When I heard this record, it wooed me in such a way that the things I knew (the things I was conscious of) were reaffirmed and the things I wasn't aware I knew (my unconscious truths) were evinced in the music. To me, this is the beautiful part of a record, and often the part that is totally overlooked for the other, obvious stuff.

I told a bunch of my friends how much I enjoyed this album, people who I thought would share my enthusiasm, and I was met with wide indifference. My man Dave said, "That's those Godspeed dudes, right?" and kinda stopped there. Zoe, a woman I generally agree with on just about everything said, "those guys with the long songs... it's a bit self-indulgent, don't you think?" Nathan, one of my best friends said he couldn't really get past the voice. "It's terrible, really."


It's like NPR. They want to do a service and expose people to new music, but in order to justify the airtime, a record has to have that smear of banality that we tell ourselves is "wide" appeal. They have to KNOW before they KNOW. There's enough of a need to engage, but not enough to engage in (not to get all Lacanian) The Real.

Speaking of Known Knowns, a lot of fun was made of Rumsfeld when he made his now classic briefing where he warned the public of impending terrors that we don't even know we know.


I don't want to attribute too much genius to Rumsfeld, but he pretty much echoed Karl Marx, who, in Capital, said, "They don't know it, but they are doing it."


Choke me in the shallow water before I get too deep.
--Edie Brickell


My problem then, with most of this Garbage-like NPR-type music is that it half steps in hopes of not overstepping. Its message resides in its very abstention from delivering a message. This abstention is sustained by an implicit trust that it's "bringing it" without ever being aware of what "it" is.

What Marx was driving at (and Rumsfeld, hopefully by mistake), I think, is what most philosophy strives for. That is, not to solve problems, but to redefine them.

Marx said, "the ultimate form of belief is deconstructionism." Ideology, at it's core, then, is the faith that behind everything (image, race, religion, nation, class) there is something human, something individual, that cannot be reduced to such terms. Something that lives to interpret all this incoming data. Something that separates us from one another (and separates us from blocks of clay). Therefore, the most anti-ideological act is to fully identify with an ideology. That is what we fear most in fundamentalism. The elimination of anything individual for the sake of total subservience to the ideology.

The culture, and by extension, the music, of the '60s and '70s was engaged in a pursuit of realizing the unknown knowns. They were looking for something they didn't know they wanted. That's the spirit of radicalism. The results of this are often historicized in the simple terms: "flower power", "black power", "women power", rock stars, stage shows, costumes, "Anarchy in the UK", etc. Rarely do we hear of what Freud called "the uneasiness in culture."

There is no culture. Culture is a living interpretation of everything all-the-time.

It's no surprise that today, the implicit horizon of understanding in our culture--what we are most concerned with--is global catastrophe. It's easier to imagine a death wave or burning sun bringing the end of life than it is to imagine a radical change of capitalism and our daily life. Everyone is preparing for the unknown. What we accept, unlike our generations past, is the capitalist market system, as flawed as it is. Everyone just sort of slumpingly accepts. Or, as Keynes said, "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone."

This is reflected in all aspects of culture,

film, TV, fashion, music.


If fundamentalism is full identification with an ideology, than these "standard" popular records that try to "bring it" without pursuing anything beyond the Known Knowns really function as their own counter agents. The very thing that causes the illness is itself, the medicine. Fundamentalists, blindly reiterating their ideologies. That is to say, the Garbage-like NPR-type music is a lot like non-alcoholic beer. You want something without the thing itself. It's silly. Debord described this as, "a deranged imitation of a deranged life, a production skillfully designed to communicate nothing. It serves no purpose but to while away an hour of boredom with a reflection of that same boredom."


These NPR-type records, for me, neither solve problems (which is easy) nor do they redefine problems (which is much harder). Rather than avoiding the standard traps, these records fall right into them. The kind of shit that All Songs Considered live for. There is always the desire to establish what is perceived to be just beyond normal. We want something to wow us without the disruption to our daily lives. I argue this doesn't exist. There is no such thing. Fake Danger isn't Danger Lite, it's, as my girl said, "so not dangerous at all." We feel free because we lack the very language to articulate our unfreedom.

Music amplifies those distant ideas floating around your otherwise meat-and-bone skull. There is an inherent risk in dealing with the unknown. That's not to say that I listen to only dissonant, underground, well-ignored noise. I actually listen to NPR and a lot of those NPR-type records. In fact, Thee Silver Mt. Zion was actually featured on NPR in a rather uncomfortable segment, so there's that.


It's not a matter of finding things that are deep, or unknown, or underground, or intentionally weird. Nor is it what soulstrut is obsessed with, being the first on the scene. That's stupid. Music, at it's best, and most modest, should be an individual telling of what it means to be free, rather than a research methodology that previously sold well.

I just can't take these people serious who claim something as "that real shit" when they offer repetitions of the mundane as examples of uniqueness. There are implicit ideological presuppositions which regulate such activity as to make someone claim, "You can't deny this shit bumps." This assertion implicitly contextualizes the spectacle as part of some deeper truth. "Justin has been a part of some very original music." This misshapen hermeneutical attitude is crucial to fundamentalist ideology. What does it mean for something to be very original?



My wife and I went to see Thee Silver Mt Zion and during one of the exchanges with the audience (when you have a string section and 20-minute songs, you have to allow time for tuning) the singer called Bob Dylan an "asshole" and claimed, after some political debate about the war, that he wasn't trying to get anyone to do anything. Rather, he said, "I'm up here speaking for myself, I'm not telling you anything."


This is the paradox in music that so many music writers and NPR-types completely miss. And this is the exact reason that when folks talk about the history of punk rock (as we've done here) it's usually as it relates to The Sex Pistols instead of Crass. They (writers, NPR-types) use the same language and apply the same reference points to two different paradigms. There are bands (most notably, Fugazi) who simply refuse to participate in the "entertainment" aspect of music and, therefore, the writers in that field are left to assume. Those assumptions are usually wrong, and the bands do nothing to correct them, because it doesn't really matter since they operate outside of that sphere.


Making them popular is a resistance against taking them seriously.






Afterwards, my wife and I were walking home discussing the show, and she said it was off-putting to hear the singer slag Dylan. I was of a complete opposite opinion, perhaps because I'd seen Fugazi in the '90s (during the big grunge boom) and watched kids try to get Ian MacKaye to sign an autograph. "Why should I write my name on your shirt." It was an insult to the kids. The question challenged presuppositions about the band. To the band, I suspect, asking for an autograph is like knocking on an open door. You're already inside.

"What does it mean to be free?"

The rejection of the premise that is crucial to fundamentalist ideology. When you get out of those known knowns--away from the level at which the obscene logic operates, away from the level of explicit beliefs--and into the territory of the unknown knowns, that is when music functions as something original. I don't this this territory belongs only to the underground, Willie Nelson is probably one of the best examples of what I describe.

The crux of my argument against your "great artists create for a great audience" is that the audience can't really be a viable consideration. Who are they? A "hit" record can't be a hit until it's made, and when it's being made no one has heard it. The space time continuum can't be wrinkled. We've got to wait and see. Record companies spends hundreds of thousands marketing records to lubricate their "audience," but in the end there is still people asking "what does this mean to me?"

There are musicians aware of this paradox who don't make records for you. Music, for them, is an investigation of some unknown knowns. The music doesn't care what you think. Selling the record is superfluous, but, paradoxically, it's not finished until it's sold (complete circuit). It's more complex than this, obviously, but for the sake of brevity let me just say these records that are made as the result of an individual pursuit have more urge for survival than those made specifically to be "sellable."

For this reason, I will always love Penny Rimbaud more than I love Bob Dylan, even though I probably listen to Dylan more than I listen to Crass.


When I was a teenager Big Black and Ministry displayed the same dynamism to me. As I get older, though, those Jourgensen-related projects are of no interest while I am still engaged with stuff like "The End of Radio." This is, I think, because that which has a Marxist deconstructionism endures while the other just sort of shows it's ass.


Big Black -- The Hammer Party
Like Butch Vig???s clean-up man said: ???I tell myself I will not go / even as I drive there.???

(To continue our discussion from that other place about Mr. Ego, this is your chance to confront he who is secretly envious of the male condition. "I think I fucked your girlfriend once... maybe twice, I don't remember....")

It's this specific misunderstanding that typifies what I am talking about. The way you and I have both logged the same hours on Hammer Party but have come to two different conclusions. Who is right? This immediate coincidence of two extremes is what I enjoy about music. Could we both end up in two disparately different places after

listening to Garbage? I doubt it. I don't think Garbage asks anything of us. It's just a block of clay, sitting there.

I think we have enough records like that. Plenty. They outnumber these others 20:1. "Places no respectable man would be seen."



I realize I've written thousands of words towards this Silver Mt. Zion record without any real specifics on the record itself. So there you have it, I'm taking up residence on the other side of the NPR coin of music writing. Instead of applying idealist faux-truths surrounded by adjectives to records anyone's mom would like, I am making a ??i??ekian postulate on the pursuit of unknown truths.

It's late, I have insomnia, and the Sex Pistols are still the face of anarchy in the UK while Penny Rimbaud tends the garden at the Dial House.

That Simone de Beauvoir could be subservient to Sartre, who was obviously her subordinate, while writing the touchstone of feminist philosophy has a lot to do with the complexity and way we think about music. When we take the Garbage route, in hopes of honing the absolute musical expression, we obliterate the little bits that make it more than just meat and bone. Ideological fundamentalism perpetrated through sound.

Fundamentalist Rock is the monolithic monologing yawn.




I swear all I ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever believed in was all of us together all alone.
--Thee Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La-Band
 
You know it???s funny; after I first read back what I wrote about that Garbage record, one of my thoughts was, ???Damn, I hope Bam doesn???t think I???m coming at him on the Steve Albini shit again??? (b/w ???You Were Always On My Mind???). Between you and me, I honestly did mean ???clean-up man??? in the sense of ???corrective,??? not in the sense of some underling following behind with a broom. I can???t even really listen to Nevermind any more.

But, I mean, any musician on a stage who says/believes "I'm up here speaking for myself, I'm not telling you anything" may have a firm grasp on their own ideology, but indeed has a poor grasp on one of the truths of human interaction, on what it means to turn around and face a group, and on what it means the moment that you do. Putting scare-quotes around ???entertainment??? will change neither the fact that it???s just another word for the pleasure taken from cultural production nor the fact that anyone who plays music for paying strangers is very much inside of ???that sphere.??? I???m not at all saying that they have to embrace all that and become Wayne Newton or something (or, ahem, Garbage), but denying it???denying that there is in that moment any degree of remove between the person who???s talking and the person who???s listening, between the people who are holding instruments that night and the people who are not???is delusional and counterproductive.

Specific examples aside, though, I think you and I part ways on a few???I???m gonna say three???key points:

First, I disagree that ???We feel free because we lack the very language to articulate our unfreedom.??? I think this is a paternalistic, anti-individual stance, assuming as it does that there is only One True, Real Freedom, a Freedom that most people don???t even realize that they are being denied. I???d argue that in feeling a connection with music that we find enjoyable, in that aforementioned completion of the emotional circuit, that there is a pleasure and a transcendence and an escape that can be???not seem, but be--completely real to the listener. In moments like that, we feel free because we are free. Now, does that constitute ???real??? freedom? In terms of aesthetics or politics or demographics or whatever, probably not. But in terms of that individual listening to that song at that moment, I think it does. And everything else, to paraphrase Dave Hickey, is term papers and advertising.

Second, you and I have previously agreed to disagree on this, but I think you???re coddling artists too much with all this. I hear what you???re saying with ???the audience isn't really a consideration. These records aren't made for you. They???re made for the sake of the artist who is investigating some unknown knowns.??? But at the same time, while these records may not have been made for me, they were sure as shit released for me???pressed up, loaded onto a truck, driven far afield, and made commercially available for me. In light of all that, I don???t think it can reasonably be said that there is no consideration of the audience on behalf of these artists of yours (and mine). In any case, the greater point is that I don???t believe that ???consideration of the audience??? is necessarily the lazy, unartistic thing you???re making it out to be here. At its deep deep core, the seemingly simple, frequently greasy pursuit of ???an audience??? or ???commercial success??? is rooted, however distantly, in the pursuit of community, the pursuit of resonance among individuals. ???Pop??? is short for ???popular,??? know what I mean? The consumption, perception, and/or consideration of art among a wide audience (which is what I meant by ???a great audience???: a wide audience) is inherently more critical and more complex than it would be among a narrower audience. Good art doesn???t need to be protected from that, and it shouldn't want to be.

Third, and related, I disagree with the dichotomy you???ve put forth by saying that ???Music, at it's best, and most modest, should be an individual telling of what it means to be free, rather than a byproduct of spectacle.??? My favorite musician of all time is probably Prince, and a huge part of his genius has been his expression of individual freedom through precisely his mastery of spectacle (Debord-defined and otherwise) and subsequent transformation of spectacle into something deeply human and individualistic.

But like you say, 1) this isn???t either/or, and 2) it???s late. (If only figuratively.) I deeply appreciate your time and effort, and will think a lot about what you've said. That may sound like a brush-off, but I give you my word as a gentleman that it is not.

Two last, small things, pursuant to a couple of your external hot links:

One, I might check out that Soft Focus thing just to see if dude would sign my cassette.

Two, I listened to FutureSexLoveSound a lot, and liked it a fair amount, but I???ve come to realize one thing: Anyone who tries to talk about Justin Timberlake without addressing whether or not they believe him to be attractive is really not saying shit. I???m not saying they have to find him personally attractive, but so much of that record is so deeply rooted in his assertions of his own allure that to talk about that record but not talk about that is pointless.
 
Shouldering your loneliness
Like a gun that you will not learn to aim,
You stumble into this movie house,
Then you climb, you climb into the frame.
Yes, and here, right here
Between the moonlight and the lane,
Between the tunnel and the train,
Between the victim and his stain,
Once again, once again,
Love calls you by your name.
Right there in the middle of the darkest record that Leonard Cohen ever made, right there amidst the wreckage of Last Year's Man, trapped beneath an avalanche that swallowed up your soul, burning at the stake with Joan of Arc, wrapped up in your famous blue raincoat in the end of December, right there, RIGHT f*cking THERE, love calls you by your name.
 
could not disagree w/ bambouche more -- how u can universalize the experience of music like that, its borderline fascistic -- music is about the interpretation of symbols by the individual imo, youre buying into the fallacy that an authentic truth can be discerned or expressed from an objective standpoint, but that a person's experience w/ a song isnt by definition 'authentic' -- isnt that where the 'authenticity' enters into it, at the point of reception? If a 13 yr old is really really into (pre-creepy for arguments sake) chris brown "forever" what makes her interaction w/ that artist any less real, any less meaningful, than your experience w/ the song you are talking about? & who are you to judge that interaction? it strikes me as extremely presumptuous, no matter how much you dress it up with philosophical context
 
how u can universalize the experience of music like that, its borderline fascistic -- music is about the interpretation of symbols by the individual imo, youre buying into the fallacy that an authentic truth can be discerned or expressed from an objective standpoint, but that a person's experience w/ a song isnt by definition 'authentic' -- isnt that where the 'authenticity' enters into it, at the point of reception? If a 13 yr old is really really into (pre-creepy for arguments sake) chris brown "forever" what makes her interaction w/ that artist any less real, any less meaningful, than your experience w/ the song you are talking about? & who are you to judge that interaction? it strikes me as extremely presumptuous, no matter how much you dress it up with philosophical context
I don't make any judgments against a 13 year old who is really really into Chris Brown's "Forever" (creepy or not). Nor do I contend her experience is not real (or Real). And, most importantly, her experience and its meaning has nothing really to do with mine.

My point is this: We are all talking about Records That Shaped Our Lives in this thread. On the face of it, we are all saying the same thing, "This record shaped my life." But, when we ask, "what does it mean to have your life shaped?" it starts to get really interesting. That's where the differences lie. I am interested in investigating those differences.




But, I mean, any musician on a stage who says/believes "I'm up here speaking for myself, I'm not telling you anything" may have a firm grasp on their own ideology, but indeed has a poor grasp on one of the truths of human interaction, on what it means to turn around and face a group, and on what it means the moment that you do. Putting scare-quotes around ???entertainment??? will change neither the fact that it???s just another word for the pleasure taken from cultural production nor the fact that anyone who plays music for paying strangers is very much inside of ???that sphere.??? I???m not at all saying that they have to embrace all that and become Wayne Newton or something (or, ahem, Garbage), but denying it???denying that there is in that moment any degree of remove between the person who???s talking and the person who???s listening, between the people who are holding instruments that night and the people who are not???is delusional and counterproductive.
James,
First, thanks for the reply. While it may seem like we're developing our own board playlist ("Oh, that song again."), I don't mind discussing the same subjects here and there, because I believe these inquiries lead us somewhere -- even if it's more firmly into our respective agree-to-disagree camps.

I fear I may not have articulated my point about the audience as well as I hoped. I think we are saying, roughly, the same thing.

There is a nameless element at work when a band performs two nights in a row at the Hideout. The difference between the Friday and the Saturday show, the nameless thing ("human interaction") is new every time. The music is obviously affected by the presence of the people, and everyone involved is altered in definable and indefinable ways.

Most music is performed as a monolith: Bright lights, big sound, tall stage with a barrier and bouncers. I think it's fair to say this is the typical concert experience. This monolith still allows for the human interaction (The Boss pulls a boyish Courtney Cox from the crowd and dances with her; Kurt dives off the stage into the arms of his fans; wait til Morrissey takes off his shirt before you throw the gladiolas; "If you like sex lemme hear you say 'You Know That?!'"), but there is usually a set of presuppositions--both audience and performer--that are reinforced by the event.

Most criticism towards Fugazi comes from their "don't dance" show-stoppers. Like that kid from their documentary, "How he gonna stop the show and tell me what to do? Fuck that, that ain't punk rock?" There were no bouncers at most Fugazi shows, the house lights stayed on the entire time, and what's more--and, I think, the reason for people's discomfort which is usually misdirected towards the "no dancing" thing--the band upset the presuppositions of the monolith by acknowledging the individual instead of addressing "the crowd." There were dynamics present.

I think he said it better than I will, but.... What I took away from the "I'm up here speaking for myself" was someone who was interested in frustrating what you called the "degree of remove between the person who???s talking and the person who???s listening." Obviously, there is the band and those who came to see the band. However, I don't think it's delusional or counterproductive to dispel the myth that there are only two options: perform and spectate. I see it as a living, breathing deconstruction of a happening-right-now experience. To answer an audience member with "This is my thing, I'm sharing it with you, but it's my thing," or to stop the show and confront someone who is hurting someone else is the same as asking, "what does it mean to be a part of this?"



Second, you and I have previously agreed to disagree on this, but I think you???re coddling artists too much with all this. I hear what you???re saying with ???the audience isn't really a consideration. These records aren't made for you. They???re made for the sake of the artist who is investigating some unknown knowns.??? But at the same time, while these records may not have been made for me, they were sure as shit released for me???pressed up, loaded onto a truck, driven far afield, and made commercially available for me. In light of all that, I don???t think it can reasonably be said that there is no consideration of the audience on behalf of these artists of yours (and mine). In any case, the greater point is that I don???t believe that ???consideration of the audience??? is necessarily the lazy, unartistic thing you???re making it out to be here. At its deep deep core, the seemingly simple, frequently greasy pursuit of ???an audience??? or ???commercial success??? is rooted, however distantly, in the pursuit of community, the pursuit of resonance among individuals. ???Pop??? is short for ???popular,??? know what I mean? The consumption, perception, and/or consideration of art among a wide audience (which is what I meant by ???a great audience???: a wide audience) is inherently more critical and more complex than it would be among a narrower audience. Good art doesn???t need to be protected from that, and it shouldn't want to be.
I don't know how coddling I am of my artists. I wouldn't want me as a fan, quite frankly. I am critical and over-thinking and not afraid to take the music to task for what I think it lacks.

I've no problem with popularity or success or a wide audience. My sticking point is striving for that instead of striving for the thing that causes that: greatness. I've no doubt that when The Stooges recorded their eponymous album they were fucking going for it. In their mind, right there, they were making the best record in the world, and it was an immediate commercial failure. Today, though, given some breathing room, it's recognized as a touchstone of everything punk/rockstar/peanutbutterhedonist, etc., and now it's a commercial success.

Of course everyone wants to make the best record ever. Of course they want to make it available to people (the pressing, the truck hauling it far afield). Of course they want the record to be enjoyed. Unfortunately, they can't make that record because it doesn't exist yet, it takes a living, breathing (thinking) audie

nce to achieve all those things. And since the record hasn't been made, and there is no audience for it, no one knows what's going to happen. (George Michael: "Gotta have faith!") Presupposing an end result affects the beginning. It's the eternal secret of desire, "would I have done this differently had I known then what I know now." You can't skip go and collect $200 without missing, you know, everything along the way.


I can???t even really listen to Nevermind any more.

Nevermind skipped go and went for the immediate, wide audience. It was built to be an immediate success, perfect for the day it was released. The older it gets, the older it looks -- The more it resonates, the less it gives. There's not a lot of trust of the audience on that record. Much like a toxic mortgage, it held together just long enough to be sold. It's exemplary of strict adherence to an ideology ("Sell!") to the detriment of any individual (Nirvana) expression. It's a sound equivalent of those old Stalinist propaganda posters. You don't have to believe in this, just practice it. To use deej's line: That's fascist!

I'm not asking for all records to be "weird" or "crazy" or "next level" or "on some new shit." I'm not talking about the sound at all. I'm saying, don't forget to bring it, whatever it is. For all the time and money they put into making hit records, they usually forget to add the part that makes them a hit: the indefinable it.

The Stooges was a great record. This was proven by it's acceptance among music lovers as well as the professional set. What made it great was not the acceptance but the fact that the band made it great. Straight up, Iggy and his dudes brought it. For years, the consensus was that it wasn't so great, but we've all come around to what Iggy 'n 'em were getting at.

The risk is making a record that is both great and unsellable. This is a scary obstacle that most corporations try to bypass.

Trusting the audience means accepting the idea that everyone, individually, is going to ask themselves, "what does this mean to me?" and living with those results. That's the subjective part. Deej can call me a fascist, but I think this--the action of putting it all out there and letting it just John-and-Paul with the people--is the truest of democratic processes. To just, you know, Let It Be, takes a lot of trust.

In the case of The Stooges, they really brought it on that first record, but were met with widespread tepidness. They threw back Fun House, which is twice the album The Stooges ever could be, and again, a lukewarm response. They kept doing what they wanted to do, over and over. I love them for trusting themselves. I love Exit for the same reason, they did exactly what they wanted. Exit, however, remain widely unknown. It's a crapshoot. It deals with the unknown, and I don't think there's any way to circumvent that. Trust the audience, but don't listen to them. Their part of the process, but not responsible for it. The record doesn't belong to them until you're done with it, and once you're done with it you can't do shit about it. So fuck 'em. Let It Be.





A dear friend of mine, whose a visual artist, enjoyed wild popularity in the art world decades past. He and his boyfriend, who were an art team, were groomed to be the next Warhols. Their work was a pop art appropriation/critique of American culture; ironic, tongue-in-cheek, reverently irreverent. People fucking loved them. Their work was shown in galleries around the world, they rode in limos, partied with stars, they made shit-tons of money... they "had it all." A big gallery in NY offered them a show. The show sold out before it opened to the general public. The new show functioned the same as their previous exhibitions (tongue-in-cheek critique of American culture through appropriated images from various media), but the subject changed with the time. While they formerly focused their attention on Madonna, jocks, keg parties, Dixie flag-flying rednecks, etc., the new show reflected the American infatuation of the day, namely black culture.

An influential art critic previewed the show and wrote a review claiming the artists were racist. Even though the show had sold out, the conditions were just so and the the racist sentiment spread like a prairie fire. This, all in the midst of Tipper Gore's PMRC assault on your man Prince and his "Darling Nikki." The Moral Majority and their cuntish need to see everything be Politically Correct.

The audience concluded it was not appropriate for two white gay dudes to use the popular images of American fetishism (black culture) as a critique of the same. It was okay when they were making fun of (white) slutty teenagers and (white) rednecks, but not this. So, my man was called a racist, the gallery dropped him, he got death threats, he and his boyfriend broke up, all the stars quit calling him, and now, decades later, he's living in an SRO working a 9 to 5.

Recently, I helped him manufacture a series of LPs for a show he had outside the U.S., and we talked a lot about his former art career. He cried when he talked about the racist accusations. Here's my man, decades on, well past it, crying that someone could so widely misunderstand him. "I'm not a racist! How could they think that?"

Coincidentally, there was a similar show (appropriations of black culture as part of a larger critique of American consumer fetishism) in New York recently and it was well received. Timing, I suppose?


Whether people are going to buy and love the art is completely out of anyone's control. I still contend, as I did in the previous post, fuck it, don't worry about what people are going to think. Make art that KILLS... Absolutely Devastates... Brings It On All Fronts... and then fuck it all, throw caution to the wind and embrace the unknown: Trust strangers to make sense of it.

Wrangling all the innumerable riotous angelic particulars lurking in one's soul and making something out of them? That's a fucking miracle. Four dudes individually pulling stuff out of the ether of their private mind gardens and turning all of that nothingness into something? It's Bradburian. That anyone would be able to listen to captured electricity and get anything from it is mind-numbing. It's a thing of pure beauty. If I weren't an atheist I'd claim it's the work of angels. If I were religious I'd claim it was the work of Satan himself.


The risk of creative pursuits, of course, is people not liking it (or being called a racist or having one's life threatened or being dismissed as simply self-indulgent). Once the art is set loose on the public everyone is free to attached whatever he wants to it. (This is where you can't accuse me of coddling) When someone chooses to put it out there, he's got to answer for it as long as he lives. I know my friend is just as proud as the work that made him famous as he is of the work that labeled him a racist.

Ain't no half steppin'


You stake your life, and if you lose it, you find yourself. It's paradoxical.
 
I've no problem with popularity or success or a wide audience. My sticking point is striving for that instead of striving for the thing that causes that: greatness. I've no doubt that when The Stooges recorded their eponymous album they were f*cking going for it. In their mind, right there, they were making the best record in the world, and it was an immediate commercial failure.
this kind of mindreading is exactly what im objecting to. this is fetishization of an artists intentions, a lot of guessing about what the artist says & what his motives are, as if we can trust his messages about his motivations, or as if there arent as many ways to read his expression of motivation as there is the art itself. if music's meaning is the in the reception then how can u put such weight on the mysticism of the artist's 'intentions'?? arent u simply reading into his intentions what u want to believe? from everything ive read about the stooges, other than iggy those dudes were pretty mindless, racist goons. maybe they were going for greatness, or maybe they were just having fun. maybe they were thinking contradictory things.

i really dont see this purity of 'greatness' as something that occurs during the creation of a record, its something that happens in its reception. if an artist makes a record in the woods & no one hears it, does it make a sound.

i just cant buy this auteur's history of music; to look at music this way fundamentally misunderstands how ppl interact with music & what music has mattered to me -- many times it was crassly cynical music that resonates with me bcuz im feeling crassly cynical, or maybe because i 'misunderstand' this cynicism.
 
a lot of guessing about what the artist says & what his motives are, as if we can trust his messages about his motivations (...) arent u simply reading into his intentions
Unless it comes with a fucking instructional manual, I'm gonna think what I want. Or is it fascist to think for myself?

That's the point. Listen to the thing, think of what it means to me, and then form an opinion. This likely changes each time I listen or think or talk about the music.

My mom hates The Stooges. My wife is kinda so-so. You think they're goons. Add a few more thousand people and we could form some kind of consensus if we wanted. That's "popular opinion." If it turns out I'm wrong, who cares, I'll still think it's great.



i really dont see this purity of 'greatness' as something that occurs during the creation of a record, its something that happens in its reception.
Pure? It doesn't have to be pure. Iggy was a peanut butter-covered junkie. But he brought it. You're pretty conceited thinking you are what makes a record great.


to look at music this way fundamentally misunderstands how ppl interact with music & what music has mattered to me
What does interacting with music mean to you? What does it mean for music to matter to you?

I look forward to your list of 25.
 
However, I don't think it's delusional or counterproductive to dispel the myth that there are only two options: perform and spectate. I see it as a living, breathing deconstruction of a happening-right-now experience. To answer an audience member with "This is my thing, I'm sharing it with you, but it's my thing," or to stop the show and confront someone who is hurting someone else is the same as asking, "what does it mean to be a part of this?"
Yeah, what you???re saying makes more sense in the context of the Fugazi example. Stopping the show to hector slam-dancers strikes me as an actual disruption of the dynamic???an acknowledgement of what???s really going on and an attempt to examine/subvert that. Dude just standing up and saying ???I???m up here in front of you and playing music and talking to you, but don???t mistake this for me trying to tell you anything,??? however, just seems like a cop-out???less a rejection of what???s really going on than a denial of it. I get you, though.


I don't know how coddling I am of my artists.
Well, by ???coddling,??? I???m not at all trying to say that you???re uncritical of the art, only that you generally go to greater lengths than I would to protect the artists??? chastity, and that I think you???re more likely than I am to consider a lack of wider success to be itself a kind of success. Sorry, that came out sounding a lot snottier than I meant it to. But you know what I mean.

In any case, yeah, I wouldn't want me as a fan either.


What made it great was not the acceptance but the fact that the band made it great.
I think this right here might be the pea that lies beneath our difference in opinion. You seem to feel that art???s resonance among a wider audience is nothing more than a recognition of the art???s inherent greatness; the art was great already???folks just needed to realize it. I, on the other hand, think that the absence of that wider resonance effectively limits the art, keeping it from completing the circuit necessary for great art.

Put differently, I think you believe that The Stooges would have become THE STOOGES no matter what--even if no one heard their great records or even knew their fucking name, they would still matter and still have the same force and still occupy the same territory and still be THE STOOGES. I believe that a significant part of the reason that The Stooges are THE STOOGES is precisely because people heard their great records and because people know who they are; I believe that without that shit, they would matter less, and that in mattering less their art would be less complete.

You and I have spent a lot of time debating the machinations of the race, but I think what we really differ on is the prize.


Nevermind skipped go and went for the immediate, wide audience. It was built to be an immediate success, perfect for the day it was released. The older it gets, the older it looks -- The more it resonates, the less it gives. There's not a lot of trust of the audience on that record. Much like a toxic mortgage, it held together just long enough to be sold. It's exemplary of strict adherence to an ideology ("Sell!") to the detriment of any individual (Nirvana) expression. It's a sound equivalent of those old Stalinist propaganda posters. You don't have to believe in this, just practice it. To use deej's line: That's fascist!
Yeah. Though I give this record points for (to rub my own rhetorical rhubarb just a little) making Nirvana NIRVANA, once I picked up a copy of From The Muddy Banks Of The Wishkah (copped from a thrift store, on cassette, minus a j-card???I was doing it real big back then, son), I pretty much quit fucking with Nevermind. There???s a youtube clip of Butch Vig explaining what they went through to get the album version of ???Drain You,??? but all that effort gets its ass handed to it by the first five seconds of pretty much any live version. There is the stuff and then there is the Stuff.
 
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Ah, can we skip the psychoanalysis and get back to listing rekkids again?
First, I'll concede that the thread title does say "25 albums," but you've gotta concede that it also says "shaped your life." How did you think this was gonna go?

And two, you're making some big talk for a dude who is, by my count, still a about five rekkids short. I'm just saying.

Three, the pop-up ad that came up while I entered this post was an invitation to "own a piece of Commodores history" by bidding on a gold-record plaque honoring Nightshift. Now, I know you can feel me on that, pickwick.
 
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Ah, can we skip the psychoanalysis and get back to listing rekkids again?
First, I'll concede that the thread title does say "25 albums," but you've gotta concede that it also says "shaped your life." How did you think this was gonna go?
Alrite, bro, ya got me!

Besides this is Soul Strut, where thread derailment (can't call it a "threadjack")is an accepted fact of life. Start out doing a thread on late night TV ads for R&B dusties, wind up discussing Eldridge Cleaver.

And two, you're making some big talk for a dude who is, by my count, still a about five rekkids short. I'm just saying.
No, I actually made the full 25. I did it as a two-parter...five albums in post one, twenty in post two. And then I reprinted the first post in the second post to tie it all together (ala Batmon), so I covered that base.

Three, the pop-up ad that came up while I entered this post was an invitation to "own a piece of Commodores history" by bidding on a gold-record plaque honoring Nightshift. Now, I know you can feel me on that, pickwick.
Wanna go half on it?

[meaningless tangent]Seriously, what got me about that banner was that it looks like the 2009 Commodores have shrunk down to three people, and only one of them appears to be an original member (the cat who sang lead on "Brick House," who people mistakenly think is Lionel Richie).[/meaningless tangent]
 
Taking a crack at this.

Childhood:

Sergio Mendes - Brasil '88
The first record I remember playing and reading all the liner notes, trying to memorize the words to Waters of March. When I hear it today it reminds me of peaceful, wide open Saturday mornings, sitting on the living room of our old walk-up apartment, flipping through records and watching our cat follow the little patch of sunlight across the floor.

Santana - S/T
Santana - Abraxas
Led Zeppelin - Houses of the Holy
My parents played these records a lot and they were influential musically, but I think it was the cover art that really blew my mind. They were weird and fascinating and scary and beautiful in a way I didn???t understand, particularly Abraxas. Obviously I didn't know anything about Mati Klarwein but I remember staring at it, trying to figure it out. For years after I spent hours trying to draw these detailed, intricate mindscapes.

Bill Withers - Greatest Hits
This was Sunday morning around-the-house music, and maybe that's why it still feels so reverential to me. Soul Shadows introduced me to that feeling you get when you hear a song you have never heard before by a person you don't know but it gives you that ache in your heart, like remembering something from your own forgotten past.

The Beatles - Abbey Road
Talking Heads - Stop Making Sense
Every year my family drove down to Florida to visit the extended family, and my dad always insisted on doing the 20+ hours straight through. We'd leave in the middle of the night and the rest of us would take turns sitting up front to keep him company. I always wanted the overnight shift so it would just be me and my dad, listening to music. Every year he'd bring the same cassettes and play them in the same order, so that at sunrise we'd be driving through almost impossibly fragrant orange groves somewhere in northern Florida just as "Here Comes the Sun" was coming on. My dad liked to veer off onto back roads on occasion, so there were always excursions to buy boiled peanuts off the side of the road in Georgia or eat breakfast at a silent, dusty farm stand. I always think of that Talking Heads album as a series of snapshots of Americana. These trips heavily influenced my approach to music as a soundtrack to life.

Billie Holiday and Lester Young ??? Lady Day and Pres
Head bowed down with misery
Nothing now appeals to me
Trav???lin???, trav???lin??? all alone


The Cure - Disintegration
Sonic Youth - Daydream Nation
Both albums were a pinhole window out of the fog of adolescent anger, depression, and feeling trapped and misunderstood.

Adulthood:

Radiohead - OK Computer
I had liked The Bends, but the first time I listened to this I was driving down a country road in the middle of the night staring out at the headlights in front of me, and it was like the music took over. Listened to it for about 2 years straight and I can't really listen to it anymore.

The Pilfers - S/T
In college I got into the little ska scene that was happening in Boston at that time, and I fell hard for this gritty little NY band. I was equally infatuated with both lead vocalist Coolie Ranx and bassist Anna Milat-Meyer. I got caught up in the excitement of going to shows, getting to know the band, jumping up on stage, rushing the merch table to pick up their demos, and feeling like part of it all. I kinda wish I'd been able to go to their one-off reunion show at the Knitting Factory a few years ago even though I've moved on musically.

Neutral Milk Hotel - In the Aeroplane Over the Sea
My friend Tim introduced me to album and I clung to it through the rage and sadness of his unfair and untimely death a few months later.

Linda Perhacs - Paralellograms
We recently had an appreciation thread about this album and I didn't get around to posting in it, but I haven't stopped listening to this since Breakself introduced me to it when I first joined SS. This is one of those albums that changes with my mood, from dreamy to almost sinister. I listen to it while I'm painting. I can actuallly see how it has influenced my painting style.

Willy Chirino - Oxigeno
I remember my mom crying while listening to this in the car once when I was younger. I didn't understand why at the time, and I didn't particularly like the album. But recently I rediscovered it and damned if it does not contain some of the most life-affirming stuff ever. It still sounds synthy and overproduced in a way typical of the early 90's and the first track "Mister Don???t Touch the Banana" is unforgiveable, but the rest of the album is so eloquent and lovely. It???s about being a damn grownup and appreciating what you have. It???s both corny as hell and dead serious. "Tengo" sums up how I want to live and view life:

Yo tengo lo que tengo,
Nadie me lo regalo
Por eso lo mantengo


As a second generation Cuban American, I have no concept of what it feels like to lose your home country, but "Nuestro Dia (Ya Viene Llegando)" speaks so powerfully of that feeling of loss that I think I understand, a little, why my mom was crying in the car that day.
 
i started responding to this question and i realized i can't post in this thread without crying.
Wow, I know that feeling you're describing, AK. I kinda felt like that too when I started writing mine and thinking about being a kid and my parents, my old house, how those times and places are so far away they feel sealed in a bubble, almost unreachable...there's something so sad about remembering yourself in the past. Even if the people you spent those times with are still in your life it's like there's something alive and in the air in eras of our lives that we can never get back to. You can go to the same place with the same people, and still everything has changed. Time and space are only half the story, there's something else mixed up in it.
I've opened this thread a number of times with a half-assed intention of listing some records, but for some reason--several, probably--thinking back to the formative periods in my life and their attendant soundtracks makes me terribly sad.

I would be remiss, though, if I didn't big up Lily not only for starting this thread, but for mentioning Dire Straits. When I was in high school, I wore out their first three albums (S/T, Love Over Gold, and Making Movies). Prompted by her mention of them, I listened to them again for the first time in many years. It's left me thinking of Mark Knopfler as an English Springsteen; I think he's that gifted. I was immediately flooded with memories of being 16 and having so many unfulfilled dreams, so much longing, so much...well, the Portuguese have a word for it: saudade. And these aren't particularly sad songs.

I could say the say for Jackson Browne's first four albums, especially Late For the Sky (ultimate breakup album?) and Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits. All of the albums I've mentioned so far came into my life directly from my brother, who is 12 years my senior and was my absolute hero as a kid. (No sad ending here; he and I are still very close.) He played guitar--and still does, beautifully--so I learned to play. He'd suggest different artists to me and make me tapes. When I was 14, he gave me a dub of the first volume of Robert Johnson's recordings, which devastated me in the best way possible.

Around that same time, I discovered a few albums on my own that I've probably listened to more than any others: ZZ Top's Greatest Hits (the OG with the campfire painting on the cover; basically all the best shit from ZZ Top's First Album and Rio Grande Mud, including "Just Got Paid," which has to be in my Lifetime Top 3 Nastiest Guitar Solos and "Tush," which, at 14, I learned to play note for note) and Jimi Hendrix Smash Hits, the original pressing. The sequencing on those two albums was just flawless; the way ZZ Top's "Waitin' for the Bus" goes right into "Jesus Just Left Chicago" feels like an inspired mixtape. And I distinctly remember listening to Jimi's "Red House"--especially the delay on his solo--hundreds of times.

And like any White Rap Fan of a Certain Age, I bought De La Soul "Three Feet High and Rising" and Beastie Boys "Paul's Boutique" in 1989 and had entire worlds opened up to me. At the same time, I read Frank Zappa's autobiography and ended up buying almost 70 of his albums. I've sold off many of them, but the first several Mothers records and a select few early solo albums are still on my shelves.

I realize that this is a piss-poor list that rambles and falls far short of the 25 records requested, but like I said, this this is much heavier than I thought it would be.

On a related note: I recently made a little playlist for the daughter we're expecting in a few months. We play it while we fix up her room and wonder if in utero music (no Nirvana) will have any effect on her. It, too, was much more difficult than I expected. As I look over this post, I realize that my playlist only contains one song by an artist mentioned above: "Little Wing" by Hendrix. It'll be interesting to see what else we add to it, and much, much more interesting to see what our kid grows up to like.
 

In vague chronological order:


1 & 2. Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms/Queen - greatest hits. When my mum divorced/fled my dad she left everything she couldn't pack into a single suitcase behind her in the US of A, so I've never had that 'grew up in a house full of music and records' thing going because all my mum's records had been smashed to pieces by my dad, and in England we were too poor to afford anything you couldn't eat. Hell, while we were living in social housing we were given our first tv (black&white) by a neighbour who's son also introduced me to 2000AD comics (still got a copy he gave me from '86 in storage). So on the rare occasions my mum bought a tape cassette, that sh*t got played, and played, and played. Around the time of Live Aid ('85) Dire Straits & Queen smashed it, and my mum got these two.

3&4. Run DMC - Raising Hell/Otis Redding - greatest hits. My mum would sometimes get a babysitter to look after me & younger brother, and one time it was this University student who introduced us to music made by black people (!). The single most influential tape cassette I'd heard in my short life. Side one was the hugely popular Run DMC album, obvious highlight being Walk This Way, but the scratches on Proud To Be Black blew my mind. The rapping, the music... I'd never heard anything like this, and it was curse-word-free enough that my mother didn't mind us listening to it. Side two had a completely different side to black American music, something I had never heard before on the tv or radio. Soul. Also mindblowing, and even more powerful in a subtle way. Mr Pitiful was my jam.

5. Holst - Teh Planets - this was my first real introduction to classical music (and probably for a lot of Brits my age). I think there was some kind of science program on the BBC in the mid/late '80s that discussed each planet in the solar system with the relevant Holst tune as a backing track, and along with describing the atmosphere on Venus etc, a little info on the music was also provided.

6. The Doors - LA Woman/Waiting For The Sun. Another 2nd or 3rd generation home-taping was killing it godsend from somebody, this was my first introduction to OLD music (classical wasn't just old, it was antiquity) from generations past. Yes, music had been made before I was alive to listen to it. Yes, it was really good! Could it be that my mum had also been young once? :mindblown:
Bonus, by this stage my mum had started working (we had to lie that she wasn't as it meant she was leaving 2 kids at home on their own after school until 6pm everyday), and my grandma had helped her buy a second hand Renault 5. This was the soundtrack to weekend car journeys.

7. The Prodigy - Experience. A friend's older brother had been disappearing every weekend this one summer and coming back with tape recordings he'd made by leaving a portable recording next to speaker stacks at some weird parties called "raves" that the police and the politicians were all very upset about. These tapes and his descriptions of events were otherworldly, and my first taste of repetitive electronic beats. The nearest I got to an album representative of the social revolution these parties had started was by the Prodigy. It still stands out for freshness, ideas, and energy.

8. Nirvana - Nevermind. I was an angsty teenager, this was angsty teenager music. Me and a group of friends would get drunk and stoned to this on school nights, fall asleep on dude's bedroom floor to this, get up and go to school with a horrific hangover to this. '60s music was for friday nights. We took LSD for every episode of the Ren & Stimpy show one year. We were rockists.

9&10. Portishead - Dummy/Various - 110 Below - Journey To The (t)rip (s)hop. I'd started going clubbing with another group of school friends. We'd take a pill, go and mash out to some trippy techno, go back to a dude's house and play trip-hop for the come down while we discussed how much skag there was or wasn't in that nights pill (my contention was that there was no way they'd be cutting pills with heroine as it was more expensive than mdma) over cigarettes and bong hits. We were clubbers. One of the group had discovered Portishead which was really, really good, and as an angry reaction to Cobain blowing his brains out, I'd started exploring electronic music and was stealing tapes from HMV (Jungle music should also feature heavily on this list but it's not an album genre). This compilation had a bunch of MoWax artists, including Kemuri by DJ Krush, and that turned me on to a whole new ball game.

11. ColdCut - JDJ. So it's a DJ mix. I don't care. The word 'seminal' was invented for things like this. Made me want to be a DJ.

12. Aphex Twin - I Care Because You Do. One of the clubbing gang had turned me onto ambient music which was exploding back then. The Orb, Orbital, Future Sound Of London, and in what was my own discovery, Aphex Twin. I was attracted to the weird cover and that I could put the tape cassette in my pocket and walk out without paying. The music on this album melted my face clean off. Nuanced. Hypnotic. Funky. Scary. Soothing. Clearly the work of a genius, to me it still sounds like a transmission from an alternate dimension.

13. Curtis Mayfield - Superfly OST. Having dropped out of school at 16 I spent a couple of years living in the interzone being unable to (a) get a job or more likely (b) sign-on and get that government unemployment benefit, so I hung out with a group of guys slightly older than me who had qualified for that free money, and lived in a slumhouse so shitty the toilet fell through the ceiling one day. One of this gang was a dealer. The rest of us were running wild making money selling stolen books and CDs for drugs, playing Mortal Kombat on pills and spliff, and as time went by, a lot of this gang got into heroine. Drug culture had become very glamorous in our eyes. We were junkies. One of us stole a VHS of Superfly and that was amazing. Having not seen Blaxploitation films before, this was raw and had a syrup-smooth funky soundtrack. Up to this point my knowledge of '60s-'70s music was mainly rockist. This was my real introduction to funk. It was also weirdly symbolic for me in that as I saw friends around me getting into heroine, I knew I needed a safer addiction, and vinyl was it. I bought a Charlie reissue of the OST and from there on I was hooked bad. I had also bought vinyl thinking that I wouldn't be able to sell records for drugs as easily as CDs... my own collection had been hocked and re-stolen many times over. Who's gonna pay for second hand records???