Spike Lee is a low-balling motherfucker

[batmon]

Guzzo said:Jonny_Paycheck said:not really interested in discussing the vague generalities of "gentrification" absent any historical context. I don't know shit about LA but I do know that Compton didn't just happen to become black and latino because.... gentrification




you're right Compton was a case of white flight, but still does that make it any better?





People may not like neighborhoods changing but its futile to try and keep a neighborhood black/ white/ Tunisian/ whatever. It's going to change and it sounds like the neighborhood Spike is talking about is changing in a way where its looking nicer, crime is lessening (police protection). So whats the real problem?




Baby DJ School

 

[batmon]

HarveyCanal said:The thing from the interview that stuck with me the most was Spike talking about his dad playing his bass at his spot for 40 years without anyone ever complaining and then along come some new additions who didn't hesitate 2 seconds to call the cops with a noise complaint.





That's some deserving of a sledge hammer to the forehead bs right there.




The new money in Harlem around Marcus Garvey Park fought against the decades old African drumming.





Scrub all the FUNK away.

 

[Guzzo]

HarveyCanal said:The thing from the interview that stuck with me the most was Spike talking about his dad playing his bass at his spot for 40 years without anyone ever complaining and then along come some new additions who didn't hesitate 2 seconds to call the cops with a noise complaint.





That's some deserving of a sledge hammer to the forehead bs right there.




agreed on that point and thats the only thing I agreed with in spikes tirade (Christopher Columbus).

 

[HarveyCanal]

Guzzo said:Jonny_Paycheck said:not really interested in discussing the vague generalities of "gentrification" absent any historical context. I don't know shit about LA but I do know that Compton didn't just happen to become black and latino because.... gentrification




you're right Compton was a case of white flight, but still does that make it any better?





People may not like neighborhoods changing but its futile to try and keep a neighborhood black/ white/ Tunisian/ whatever. It's going to change and it sounds like the neighborhood Spike is talking about is changing in a way where its looking nicer, crime is lessening (police protection). So whats the real problem?




The real problem is a lot of times gentrification isn't just a matter of the happenstance of changing economics, but a deliberate plot put in action by racist city planners. In Austin, the history is that they built the central freeway in the 60's and then encouraged (i.e. forced one way or another) all black people to move east of that freeway. Close to the same time, I-10 was routed through New Orleans' prime black neighborhood as a means to fracture it. I don't know if I can say that in New York that this current wave of gentrification was planned or not, but if it walks like a duck...

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

"white flight" is a catchphrase, one that doesn't really even speak to real significant things that happened in major urban centers over the course of several decades, often with assistance + subsidization from federal state and city governments. this is real history and it wasn't just the winds of change. there's lots of information out there if you care (it doesn't sound like you do).





in short, the issues that NYC faces are a severe shortage of affordable housing, landlord discrimination and sabotage, unequal provision of services, unequal treatment by the police and social agencies, and ultimately a collusion of policies that, if unchecked, will make New York City (much like San Francisco, although not like LA as far as I can tell) a city inhabited almost solely by the very wealthy. Spike talked a little bit about the cultural implications and some of the together-but-unequal society that we're erecting. McWhorter's shit on this is thin as fuck.





people who want to reduce this to "TEH HIPSTERZ TUK ERR APARTMENTZ!" vs. "hey, there's good restaurants now" are not serious.

 

[Brian]

my only critique is it has nothing to do with race

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

HarveyCanal said:Guzzo said:Jonny_Paycheck said:not really interested in discussing the vague generalities of "gentrification" absent any historical context. I don't know shit about LA but I do know that Compton didn't just happen to become black and latino because.... gentrification




you're right Compton was a case of white flight, but still does that make it any better?





People may not like neighborhoods changing but its futile to try and keep a neighborhood black/ white/ Tunisian/ whatever. It's going to change and it sounds like the neighborhood Spike is talking about is changing in a way where its looking nicer, crime is lessening (police protection). So whats the real problem?




The real problem is a lot of times gentrification isn't just a matter of the happenstance of changing economics, but a deliberate plot put in action by racist city planners. In Austin, the history is that they built the central freeway in the 60's and then encouraged (i.e. forced one way or another) all black people to move east of that freeway. Close to the same time, I-10 was routed through New Orleans' prime black neighborhood as a means to fracture it. I don't know if I can say that in New York, this current wave of gentrification was planned or not, but if it walks like a duck...




it doesn't have to be racist city planners (although those were certainly present in the early reorganization of the city, creation of the South Bronx, location of housing projects, etc)





the system is set up to do this. we have been doing this for the entirety of our history. McWhorter's argument is fucked (partially) because he says "well that was segregation" without realizing that this, too, is segregation. and it is not accidental.

 

[Guzzo]

Jonny_Paycheck said:"white flight" is a catchphrase, one that doesn't really even speak to real significant things that happened in major urban centers over the course of several decades, often with assistance + subsidization from federal and state governments. this is real history and it wasn't just the winds of change. there's lots of information out there if you care




Is this the case in the neighborhood Spike is talking about?

 

[vintageinfants]

it should be clear that only Spike Lee Could Speak On This Matter With Such Profound Efficacy And Be Completely Correct About It All, and still come off looking like the biggest asshole in the world, not worthy to accept all of the emotional response he asks for.

 

[HarveyCanal]

Who besides those who have been living under a rock for the past 50 years thought Spike came off as an asshole? I loved that he was speaking candidly instead trying to please his public relations director.

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

Guzzo said:Jonny_Paycheck said:"white flight" is a catchphrase, one that doesn't really even speak to real significant things that happened in major urban centers over the course of several decades, often with assistance + subsidization from federal and state governments. this is real history and it wasn't just the winds of change. there's lots of information out there if you care




Is this the case in the neighborhood Spike is talking about?




with all due respect this isn't a serious question. I encourage you to look into Urban Renewal, the creation of public housing, so-called "white flight" (a better term might be "suburbanization"), the various accomplishments of Robert Moses, the crack epidemic, the Rockefeller laws, the prison industrial complex, the Streetcar Conspiracy, stop & frisk, redlining, block busting, restricted covenants, landlord sabotage, rent control, rent stabilization, rezoning, and - finally - gentrification. If you want to know more.

 

[DB_Cooper]

Jonny_Paycheck said:Robert Moses




It doesn't get much more intentional than this guy.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Jonny_Paycheck said:that is a dumb ass article.





Spike's not really the best messenger, but he hit on a lot of truth in his remarks IMO.




Not that it needs to be pointed out, but it isn't just something that affects areas that have historically been seen as quote-unquote black, either. Spike's going to talk about Brooklyn because that's where he grew up, but there are a grip of areas here in Berlin that you could say much the same thing about. Equally, the part of East London where my missus grew up fell victim to gentrification a decade and a half ago. She was one of the last people left in her block before she finally moved out in 2001. Six years later, her old apartment had been redeveloped and was on the market for half a million quid.





And FOH with that "hipster is the new honkey" bullshit. Boo fucking hoo. There is almost literally nothing I hate more in the world right now than the whining of the privileged when they don't automatically get their own way. I could give a fuck about a bunch of entitled idiots who've never wanted for anything and who think the scene is there because of them when the truth is it's the other way around. J-Zone nailed it on Facebook the other day, talking about the looming invasion of Queens by kids who used to dis it but who can't afford Brooklyn rents any more - all those cool little cafes and restaurants you've "discovered" didn't just appear a few weeks ago. They were always there, part of this wonderful "diversity" that you've no intention of ever exploring and which you won't be able to stamp out quickly enough once it starts to interfere with your ability to sleep straight through until two in the afternoon when everyone else is out earning a proper living. This is as true of London and Berlin as it is NYC. The singers change but the song remains the fucking same.

 

[Rockadelic]

I watched the interview and the thing that stuck with me was simply that the schools, services, etc. had improved with gentrification.

 

[HarveyCanal]

Rockadelic said:I watched the interview and the thing that stuck with me was simply that the schools, services, etc. had improved with gentrification.




That's Spike's whole point. The city wasn't sincerely trying to improve any of that when it was a black neighborhood. But then once it started turning into a more white neighborhood, the long-needed resources suddenly started falling from the sky.

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

HarveyCanal said:Rockadelic said:I watched the interview and the thing that stuck with me was simply that the schools, services, etc. had improved with gentrification.




That's Spike's whole point. The city wasn't sincerely trying to improve any of that when it was a black neighborhood. But then once it started turning into a more white neighborhood, the long-needed resources suddenly started falling from the sky.




bingo.








and - it's not even that simple, because often times a single facility houses multiple schools, gifted + talented programs, charters, whatever. and the schools in not-gentrified parts of town are just as fucked as ever.








people are so quick to proclaim gentrification a success. wonder what that's about.

 

[Guzzo]

Jonny_Paycheck said:Guzzo said:Jonny_Paycheck said:"white flight" is a catchphrase, one that doesn't really even speak to real significant things that happened in major urban centers over the course of several decades, often with assistance + subsidization from federal and state governments. this is real history and it wasn't just the winds of change. there's lots of information out there if you care




Is this the case in the neighborhood Spike is talking about?




with all due respect this isn't a serious question. I encourage you to look into Urban Renewal, the creation of public housing, so-called "white flight" (a better term might be "suburbanization"), the various accomplishments of Robert Moses, the crack epidemic, the Rockefeller laws, the prison industrial complex, the Streetcar Conspiracy, stop & frisk, redlining, block busting, restricted covenants, landlord sabotage, rent control, rent stabilization, rezoning, and - finally - gentrification. If you want to know more.




Jonny,





I'm trying to discuss this from the perspective that it was presented, Spike Lee got angry went off about how today in the neighborhood he grew up in its messing things up. I don't see what the gentrification of his neighborhood is doing in a negative way other than some folks trying to stop a Michael Jackson celebration and his dad not being able to play sax in the house.





I agree there is a deep history of racism and pushing people out of neighborhoods, trying to round up ethnicities to all live in particular areas etc. But I'm talking about today, and Spikes gripes and how much of a real issue is there and how much is Spike just being a bitter guy who isn't happy that the neighborhood has white folks wanting to move now.





The crack epidemic, streetcar conspiracy, etc aren't really a part of that conversation unless were no longer discussing the exacts that Spike is talking about.

 

[DocMcCoy]

HarveyCanal said:The thing from the interview that stuck with me the most was Spike talking about his dad playing his bass at his spot for 40 years without anyone ever complaining and then along come some new additions who didn't hesitate 2 seconds to call the cops with a noise complaint.





That's some deserving of a sledge hammer to the forehead bs right there.




Yep.





A similar thing happened in those traditionally white working-class/immigrant areas of the East End of London that became desirable in the mid-to-late 90s after an emerging artistic community took advantage of the cheap rents and brought a significant night-time economy with them. Property developers followed, and after that came all the City of London brokers looking for something to spend their seven-figure bonuses on. Not long after that, bars and venues and all kinds of cool little spots were being hit with nuisance complaints and having their licenses revoked left, right and centre.





More than anything else, even cops and politicians, it's people like that who do the most to suck all the fun out of living in a great city.

 

[Guzzo]

HarveyCanal said:Rockadelic said:I watched the interview and the thing that stuck with me was simply that the schools, services, etc. had improved with gentrification.




That's Spike's whole point. The city wasn't sincerely trying to improve any of that when it was a black neighborhood. But then once it started turning into a more white neighborhood, the long-needed resources suddenly started falling from the sky.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leimert_Park,_Los_Angeles





If you can't count on the government doing it for you why not improve it yourself?

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

Guzzo said:Jonny_Paycheck said:Guzzo said:Jonny_Paycheck said:"white flight" is a catchphrase, one that doesn't really even speak to real significant things that happened in major urban centers over the course of several decades, often with assistance + subsidization from federal and state governments. this is real history and it wasn't just the winds of change. there's lots of information out there if you care




Is this the case in the neighborhood Spike is talking about?




with all due respect this isn't a serious question. I encourage you to look into Urban Renewal, the creation of public housing, so-called "white flight" (a better term might be "suburbanization"), the various accomplishments of Robert Moses, the crack epidemic, the Rockefeller laws, the prison industrial complex, the Streetcar Conspiracy, stop & frisk, redlining, block busting, restricted covenants, landlord sabotage, rent control, rent stabilization, rezoning, and - finally - gentrification. If you want to know more.




Jonny,





I'm trying to discuss this from the perspective that it was presented, Spike Lee got angry went off about how today in the neighborhood he grew up in its messing things up. I don't see what the gentrification of his neighborhood is doing in a negative way other than some folks trying to stop a Michael Jackson celebration and his dad not being able to play sax in the house.





I agree there is a deep history of racism and pushing people out of neighborhoods, trying to round up ethnicities to all live in particular areas etc. But I'm talking about today, and Spikes gripes and how much of a real issue is there and how much is Spike just being a bitter guy who isn't happy that the neighborhood has white folks wanting to move now.





The crack epidemic, streetcar conspiracy, etc aren't really a part of that conversation unless were no longer discussing the exacts that Spike is talking about.







my man:

I don't see what the gentrification of his neighborhood is doing in a negative way other than some folks trying to stop a Michael Jackson celebration and his dad not being able to play sax in the house.

I already suggested a few ways in this thread that gentrification is affecting neighborhoods in NYC. If you want to familiarize yourself with the issue I'm happy to discuss it but you are not familiar and my name isn't google.

I agree there is a deep history of racism and pushing people out of neighborhoods, trying to round up ethnicities to all live in particular areas etc. But I'm talking about today

the shit is very much interconnected and relevant. If you're talking about today, then you need to be aware of how it came to be. Otherwise we are not going to have a productive discussion.