What if...? (hip hop production related)

[mannybolone]

What if sampling never had to be cleared? I.e. the courts had decided that sampling wasn't a violation of copyright? Q: How might of this changed the evolution of rap production starting in the mid'90s to present?Q: Would the Triton/Casio era have been inevitable regardless?Q: Would it actually have created better music? Q: Would it have made crate diggin' more or less popular?To give some context, I was listening to some of Biz Markie's old CDs in the car this morning and got to "Alone Again" which is one of the key songs that helped establish precedent on sample clearance and what not. And then I thought about how the Bomb Squad was able to craft their signature sound on the 2nd and 3rd PE albums b/c they had carte blanche more or less to take whatever they wanted and layer it over and over. It's hardly as if sampling-based hip-hop died after the Biz and De La verdicts but many have argued that sampling laws have stymied production b/c of all the legal hassle. As I don't produce, I can't really say whether or not unlimited sampling privileges would actually improve artistic creativity and product however. Just b/c you have no limits doesn't mean thta makes things better by nature, you know?

 

[jaymack]

C

 

[batmon]

 

[spelunk]

Interesting question for speculation. I think to some degree sampling and digging are just beyond some people unless they're really driven towards it and want to participate. There aren't too many people who truly understand sampling & digging without being somewhat involved in a participatory way. Think about the people on this board, everyone is in some way involved in sampling culture, and not just from the standpoint of an observer (well, we don't know about the lurkers, but...)

You can't really explain to most people why sampling can be mindblowingly brilliant...most people either get it or they don't get it. Even DJ Shadow fanatics who love Endtroducing... and hate hip-hop, most of them don't really understand the nature of all those sample sources, or how he chopped shit like Organ Donor. They've got the concept but not the practical aspects. I don't think a random dude will ever get the satisfaction listening to a Pete Rock beat that I get, because he doesn't understand how the music was constructed.

Would the music be better? Probably. Would we still hear Triton sounds a lot? Probably, but mixed along with other stuff. There's a lot of crunk/hyphy stuff that I can't get enough of, but if sampling persisted as the dominant means of production (fuck this sounds like some Economics shit) that stuff would probably be cast off as dance music and spin off into its own derivatives of hip-hop.

I still think we would have seen jiggy era shit, because the dumbing-down forces of mass media can fuck with sampled music too, and as Diddy's dumbass has shown, sampling a 4-bar loop can result in some pretty crappy music.

More interesting shit: What would happen today if sampling were legalized? Would sampled production reign supreme? I don't think so. When I listen to the hip-hop my sister has grown up with on mtv and whatnot, so much of it has that triton & r&b sound to it that for her, listening to my hip-hop is a completely different genre of music. Game's done changed a lot.

 

[4YearGraduate]

 

[keithvanhorn]

I know Biz got slammed, but my understanding was that the laws did not change...just that copyright infringment was interpreted as covering any sampling of copywritten materials...even if it was minimal. If you have a source that talks about how the law changed, I'd like to see it. I'm not that familiar with copywrite law (although i'd like to be), but I find it hard to believe that the law ever specifically allowed for sampling. More likely, biz was the first dude who got nailed for it.

 

[Swayze]

Q: How might of this changed the evolution of rap production starting in the mid'90s to present?

not at all.

Q: Would the Triton/Casio era have been inevitable regardless?

Yep.

Q: Would it actually have created better music?

Nope.

Q: Would it have made crate diggin' more or less popular?

No effect.



I honestly don't think sampling laws had shit to do with most of it. Lets face it, its a HELL of alot easier to programs a beat on a keyboard then to spend hours, week, month, and years sitting in thrift shops, trolling record stores, going to swap meets, etc, to find all that shit.

 

[faux_rillz]

Q: How might of this changed the evolution of rap production starting in the mid'90s to present?

not at all.

Q: Would the Triton/Casio era have been inevitable regardless?

Yep.

Q: Would it actually have created better music?

Nope.

Q: Would it have made crate diggin' more or less popular?

No effect.



I honestly don't think sampling laws had shit to do with most of it. Lets face it, its a HELL of alot easier to programs a beat on a keyboard then to spend hours, week, month, and years sitting in thrift shops, trolling record stores, going to swap meets, etc, to find all that shit.
Where is that eyeroll graemlin?

 

[Swayze]

Q: How might of this changed the evolution of rap production starting in the mid'90s to present?

not at all.

Q: Would the Triton/Casio era have been inevitable regardless?

Yep.

Q: Would it actually have created better music?

Nope.

Q: Would it have made crate diggin' more or less popular?

No effect.



I honestly don't think sampling laws had shit to do with most of it. Lets face it, its a HELL of alot easier to programs a beat on a keyboard then to spend hours, week, month, and years sitting in thrift shops, trolling record stores, going to swap meets, etc, to find all that shit.
Where is that eyeroll graemlin?

I'm assuming you know how to play a keyboard and/or sample? I know how to do both. Trust me. Keyboards are WAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY easier. You can just play whatever is in your head! how is that not easy?!?

 

[faux_rillz]

Q: How might of this changed the evolution of rap production starting in the mid'90s to present?

not at all.

Q: Would the Triton/Casio era have been inevitable regardless?

Yep.

Q: Would it actually have created better music?

Nope.

Q: Would it have made crate diggin' more or less popular?

No effect.



I honestly don't think sampling laws had shit to do with most of it. Lets face it, its a HELL of alot easier to programs a beat on a keyboard then to spend hours, week, month, and years sitting in thrift shops, trolling record stores, going to swap meets, etc, to find all that shit.
Where is that eyeroll graemlin?

I'm assuming you know how to play a keyboard and/or sample? I know how to do both. Trust me. Keyboards are WAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY easier. You can just play whatever is in your head! how is that not easy?!?
Where are your chart-topping keyboard beatz, Gary? I mean, if it's easy, I can only conclude that you have turned your back on the millions to be made as the next Scott Storch out of a selfless commitment to that real schitt. And for that I salute you.


Everyone give it up for garybull!

 

[el_sparko]

I'm assuming you know how to play a keyboard and/or sample? I know how to do both. Trust me. Keyboards are WAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY easier. You can just play whatever is in your head! how is that not easy?!?

Some people may argue that with sampling you don't even need to do that, cause you're looping someone else who played "whatever is in their head" and so is comparatively easier... i'm not saying i agree, or care, either way though, just sayin'

 

[Swayze]

Where are your chart-topping keyboard beatz, Gary? I mean, if it's easy, I can only conclude that you have turned your back on the millions to be made as the next Scott Storch out of a selfless commitment to that real schitt. And for that I salute you.


Everyone give it up for garybull!

Riiiiighhhhtttt..... So you don't know how to do either then.... do you have any musical talent at all?


and yeah, looping shit up is pretty easy. Its finding the loops that is hard. Playing what you hear in your head is easy.

 

[spelunk]

Playing what you hear in your head is easy.

But if what's in your head sounds like shit, it really doesn't matter. That's why there are so many crappy records out there. People played what was in their head, and recorded a turd.

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

and yeah, looping shit up is pretty easy. Its finding the loops that is hard. Playing what you hear in your head is easy.

Do you know how to find a hot loop?

 

[Swayze]

and yeah, looping shit up is pretty easy. Its finding the loops that is hard. Playing what you hear in your head is easy.

Do you know how to find a hot loop?

They are on records that come with thweet posters

 

[Sun_Fortune]

From what I know, hip hop production has just always taken advantage of whatever technology was available. With high end keyboards that are available for pretty much everyone, it makes sense that keyboards are what most people use.

As a sampling musician who rarely even releases material, I still try my damndest to alter everything I touch beyond recognition. Just cause its more challenging and fun that way. Even if I dont have to worry about clearing laws.

 

[Brian]

can we pleasssssssssse not have a keyboard vs sampling argument

 

[Swayze]

Playing what you hear in your head is easy.

But if what's in your head sounds like shit, it really doesn't matter. That's why there are so many crappy records out there. People played what was in their head, and recorded a turd.
Doesn't mean its not easy to do.


making a beat isn't the same as reciting Liszt. I sequenced a chopin peice on some peice of shit computer that made beeping noises once while I was in the army. Playing it on a piano is difficult as shit. Sequencing the computer beeps to play it was easy enough. It just took time. Which I had plenty of.

 

[mannybolone]

can we pleasssssssssse not have a keyboard vs sampling argument

Word. That wasn't my point in raising the question. It really has to do with whether sampling laws actually "stifled" creativity in ways that it's been argued/assumed it has.

As a corollary, I'm curious if more lax copyright laws would have impacted crate digging either positively or negatively.

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

It just took time. Which I had plenty of.

Clearly, this much has not changed...