David Cronenberg VS. John Carpenter

[ameldabee]

bassie said:Ooooh - thank you! Do you know, is it written by the same Chris Kraus who writes for Semiotexte?? I like her writing.




Bassie, different Chris Kraus


-> http://www.semiotexte.com/books/iLoveDick.html (female, yours)


-> http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0470098/ (male, director/witer of 'Four Minutes')





To keep on the Dardenne's bros' touch, their first (well second actually) movie is quite amazing ->

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0200071/





Golden Palm and well deserved !


Also with an incredible ??milie Dequenne !

 

[dwyhajlo]

Ulysses31nicholas said:dwyhajlo said: The Internet has made it easier to get access to a lot of this stuff, but there's still a lot of digging that needs to be done. 2010 does seem like it's been a particularly dry year.




go on then, allow me to call your bluff since you clearly know your onions. what has been good. what has been overlooked. what can you recommend




Here's a few more recent-ish movies that I think have been a bit overlooked:





Femme Fatale


Lone Star


Nightmare


Lunacy


Mulberry Street


Underground [1995; Kusturica]


Black Cat, White Cat


Shadow of the Vampire


Funky Forest


Survive Style 5+


Internal Affairs [2002; Lau]


Sonatine


Chocolat [1988; Denis]


Insitute Benjamenta


Three Colors trilogy


God of Cookery


Dumplings [2004; Chan]


Drowning By Numbers


The Cook, The Thief, His Wife & Her Lover (might be hard to find)


Lost in New York





...and so on.

 

[hertzhog]

ameldabee said:





El secreto de sus ojos is okay, I expected a bit more...




The "secret" is pretty ridiculous, and the way the junta period is handled is superficial at best. It's efficiently directed and well-acted, but that's about it.





Love the Dardenne brothers (my favorite being Le Fils, followed by Rosetta), but the ending of Lorna's Silence didn't quite come together for me.

 

[Beatnicholas]

dwyhajlo said:


Three Colors trilogy







you ride? i found the whole thing agonising.





b/w thanks for the list, lovefilm 's gonna get murked

 

[m_dejean]

dwyhajlo said:I'd actually rate Big Trouble in Little China above The Thing. I think that the former takes on a whole new level of greatness when you realize that the main character, through whom we see most of the movie, is not actually the great white superhero action star he thinks he is. Jack Burton is Wang's sidekick and I think it's pretty awesome in the way it subtly (well, maybe) subverts the conventions of the genre. Not to mention that the action sequences and setpieces are pretty awesome.




BTILC is great fun. And the title song and video is straight 80s heat:















Middle-aged white men with 'staches and mullets FTW.






As for the original question, I'll go with Carpenter.

 

[Junior]

Birdman9 saidOR said:dwyhajlo said:





I'd actually rate Big Trouble in Little China above The Thing. I think that the former takes on a whole new level of greatness when you realize that the main character, through whom we see most of the movie, is not actually the great white superhero action star he thinks he is. Jack Burton is Wang's sidekick and I think it's pretty awesome in the way it subtly (well, maybe) subverts the conventions of the genre. Not to mention that the action sequences and setpieces are pretty awesome.







I actually wonder how Big Trouble in Little China would have turned out if they had kept it a western as they had originally planned.





To me Big Trouble in Little China has always been a great example of a Hollywood movie that tanked almost directly due (IMO) to a major studio having zero idea how to promote a movie.




BTILC also has one of my favorite DVD commentary tracks, as does Escape from New York and The Thing. Only John Waters is more entertaining than Carpenter and Russell as far as commentary goes.




Yes this! Some of the most interesting and amusing commentaries out there (would also add Verhoeven commentaries to the list)and I found a new love for Russell off the back of them. Interestingly they mentioned on the commentary to BTILC that it got some of the highest scores at pre release screenings the studio had ever seen which made the fact it flopped even more unexpected.





Also, going back a bit, have to cosign on Kairo, an exceptionally well made and pretty unique entry in recent horror films in that the 'horror' aspect is not really the central drive of the film at all.

 

[Duderonomy]

dwyhajlo said:





I'd actually rate Big Trouble in Little China above The Thing. I think that the former takes on a whole new level of greatness when you realize that the main character, through whom we see most of the movie, is not actually the great white superhero action star he thinks he is. Jack Burton is Wang's sidekick and I think it's pretty awesome in the way it subtly (well, maybe) subverts the conventions of the genre.







I don't know about this. I don't think Jack Burton is Wang's sidekick. Jack Burton is just along for the ride*. And I see it as a comedy over an action flick, in which case Jack Burton is hands-down the (anti)hero/main man.





*Or it's about philosophy:





Jack Burton: I'm a reasonable guy. But, I've just experienced some very unreasonable things.





Jack Burton: Like I told my last wife, I says, "Honey, I never drive faster than I can see. Besides that, it's all in the reflexes."





Jack Burton: I don't get this at all. I thought Lo Pan...


Lo Pan: Shut up, Mr. Burton! You are not brought upon this world to get it!





Lo Pan: And when I find her, I will marry her...


Wang Chi: Never!


Lo Pan: Ching Dai will be appeased, my curse will be lifted!


Jack Burton: And you can go on to rule the universe from beyond the grave.


Lo Pan: Indeed!


Jack Burton: Or check into a psycho ward, whichever comes first, right?


Wang Chi: Jack, will you...?


Jack Burton: "Jack" what? I'm supposed to buy this shit? 2000 years, he can't find one broad to fit the bill? Come on, Dave, you must be doing something seriously wrong!


Lo Pan: There have been others, to be sure. There are always others. But you know, Mr. Burton, the difficulties between men and women. How seldom it works out? Yet we all keep trying, like fools.

 

[dwyhajlo]

Ulysses31nicholas said:you ride? i found the whole thing agonising.




Yeah, I mean I can't say outright that it's one of my favorites of all time or anything like that, but I think it's pretty great. I can completely understand why someone would not be feeling it, though. You may want to skip Institute Benjamenta and Lost in New York, though, because the pacing in those is kind of excruciatingly deliberate, and can verge on torture if you aren't into it.





I should also say that my taste in horror movies can sometimes run a bit into what other people would call "terrible". I think that Mulberry Street is pretty good if you can deal with really corny zombie apocalypse style scenarios. But it might be a bad watch if you have a low tolerance for what is really not all that "great".





Duderonomy said:I don't know about this. I don't think Jack Burton is Wang's sidekick. Jack Burton is just along for the ride*. And I see it as a comedy over an action flick, in which case Jack Burton is hands-down the (anti)hero/main man.





*Or it's about philosophy:




Well, for sure Jack Burton is the protagonist/main character, but he has so many of characteristics of the bumbling sidekick. He's constantly relying on Wang, Wang's uncle, and Egg Shen for information, he's not nearly as good of a fighter as he thinks he is, his motives are not very altruistic (he's really just looking to get his truck back), he doesn't "get the girl" at the end, and he provides a lot of comic relief, often at his own expense (as in the last big battle scene where he gets knocked out and then trapped under that armored dude). On the other hand, Wang and the Wing Chi, and Egg Shen are shown to be really effective in combat, because they actually know what's going on and are prepared for it.


I think that Jack Burton is a pretty good subversion of the swaggering Western action hero, and I've heard people say that this was Carpenter's intention from day one (early cuts of the movie supposedly didn't have the intro with Jack driving into town, but the studio execs didn't "get" what Carpenter was going for), but I can't verify that.





This is why I have to sort of scoff when people criticize it for being a caricature of Asian Americans, which is a pretty shallow reading of the movie - Jack has wandered into a typical Chinese swords & sorcery/kung fu movie and is totally unfamiliar with any of it. It's about as racist as any Chinese-made kung fu movie that has magic involved.

 

[Beatnicholas]

dwyhajlo said:





I should also say that my taste in horror movies can sometimes run a bit into what other people would call "terrible". I think that Mulberry Street is pretty good if you can deal with really corny zombie apocalypse style scenarios.










man zombie movies are my favourite thing. i think i've seen most of the ones that are easily available.





and yep, the pacing of certain european art films tends to have me passing out with boredom.

 

[Duderonomy]

dwyhajlo said:





Well, for sure Jack Burton is the protagonist/main character, but he has so many of characteristics of the bumbling sidekick. He's constantly relying on Wang, Wang's uncle, and Egg Shen for information, he's not nearly as good of a fighter as he thinks he is, his motives are not very altruistic (he's really just looking to get his truck back), he doesn't "get the girl" at the end, and he provides a lot of comic relief, often at his own expense (as in the last big battle scene where he gets knocked out and then trapped under that armored dude).




Exactly: How seldom it works out? Yet we all keep trying, like fools.





Burton seems to be human, full of mistakes and vanity while

On the other hand, Wang and the Wing Chi, and Egg Shen are shown to be really effective in combat

So effective that Wang doesn't even seem human when he has that awesome arial combat scene!

I think that Jack Burton is a pretty good subversion of the swaggering Western action hero, and I've heard people say that this was Carpenter's intention from day one (early cuts of the movie supposedly didn't have the intro with Jack driving into town, but the studio execs didn't "get" what Carpenter was going for), but I can't verify that.





This is why I have to sort of scoff when people criticize it for being a caricature of Asian Americans, which is a pretty shallow reading of the movie - Jack has wandered into a typical Chinese swords & sorcery/kung fu movie and is totally unfamiliar with any of it. It's about as racist as any Chinese-made kung fu movie that has magic involved.

I agree with all this. China is here crops up a few times, and Jack never gets it, I suppose any more than the studio execs.

 

[Birdman9]

Duderonomy said:dwyhajlo said:





Well, for sure Jack Burton is the protagonist/main character, but he has so many of characteristics of the bumbling sidekick. He's constantly relying on Wang, Wang's uncle, and Egg Shen for information, he's not nearly as good of a fighter as he thinks he is, his motives are not very altruistic (he's really just looking to get his truck back), he doesn't "get the girl" at the end, and he provides a lot of comic relief, often at his own expense (as in the last big battle scene where he gets knocked out and then trapped under that armored dude).




Exactly: How seldom it works out? Yet we all keep trying, like fools.





Burton seems to be human, full of mistakes and vanity while

On the other hand, Wang and the Wing Chi, and Egg Shen are shown to be really effective in combat

So effective that Wang doesn't even seem human when he has that awesome arial combat scene!

I think that Jack Burton is a pretty good subversion of the swaggering Western action hero, and I've heard people say that this was Carpenter's intention from day one (early cuts of the movie supposedly didn't have the intro with Jack driving into town, but the studio execs didn't "get" what Carpenter was going for), but I can't verify that.





This is why I have to sort of scoff when people criticize it for being a caricature of Asian Americans, which is a pretty shallow reading of the movie - Jack has wandered into a typical Chinese swords & sorcery/kung fu movie and is totally unfamiliar with any of it. It's about as racist as any Chinese-made kung fu movie that has magic involved.

I agree with all this. China is here crops up a few times, and Jack never gets it, I suppose any more than the studio execs.

Shut up, Mr. Burton! You are not brought upon this world to get it!

Pretty much sums up the spirit of the film!

 

[bassie]

hertzhog said:





Love the Dardenne brothers (my favorite being Le Fils, followed by Rosetta), but the ending of Lorna's Silence didn't quite come together for me.




I was not sure about it at first, but appreciated it more as time went on. My favourite thing about their films is the realism, so that ending, though nothing crazy, was odd for them.





I am still not sure if I feel like they knew that's how they wanted to end it or if it was an act of desperation in writing.





Edit - Yes, Le Fils is the first thing I saw by them and it is very close to being a perfect film (I would say the same for Do The Right Thing).


It's the hard-to-define thing - how the Dardennes can make a sinlge shot of the back of a man's neck compelling and beautiful and Egoyan can't breathe life into...well....anything.

 

[Saracenus]

Carpenter and Russell talked about Jack Burton being a sidekick as the running gag throughout the movie in the commentary. I guess this all comes down to artists intent vs. viewer interpretation. Sometimes those two things don't meet.





Personally I didn't get it until it was pointed out to me during the commentary and then it was really obvious upon later viewings that Jack Burton was the comedic sidekick, not the action hero. Before that revelation I had put Jack Burton in the pantheon of idiot heroes like Ash (Evil Dead I, II, and Army of Darkness), Val and Earl (Tremors), and Wikus van de Merwe (District 9).





As the original point of this topic. I ride for early Carpenter but Cronenberg's later work has grown on me.