Has anyone heard ”When Doves Cry” with a bassline (Prince-related)
- Thread starter phongone
- Start date
batmon said:Alot of Rap made after Run Dmc attempted to ape their style. That was a shift.
Sucker Mc was without baselines in Black music before When Doves Cry.
This is a surprising level of myopia, even for a New Yorker.
Like, okay, let's say you're right--let's say that "When Doves Cry" doesn't sound all that different, that it's only, like, Level-Four Weird Sound, and coming in a year late and a buck short. I personally think that's bullshit, but okay, sure. The fact is that that song had Level-Four Weird Sound pumping out of pastel Soundesigns in lilly-white teenage-girl bedrooms in fucking Bozeman, Montana or wherever. That represents a far deeper--and far truer--"paradigm shift" than some Level-Ten Weird Sound that's barely rippling beyond the cognoscenti and the fans.
In a discussion like this, I think scale means something, and while "Sucker MCs" might have changed rap, "When Doves Cry" changed pop, rock, and r&b a good couple of years before Run-DMC was having anything close to that kind of global effect.
Sucker Mc was without baselines in Black music before When Doves Cry.
This is a surprising level of myopia, even for a New Yorker.
Like, okay, let's say you're right--let's say that "When Doves Cry" doesn't sound all that different, that it's only, like, Level-Four Weird Sound, and coming in a year late and a buck short. I personally think that's bullshit, but okay, sure. The fact is that that song had Level-Four Weird Sound pumping out of pastel Soundesigns in lilly-white teenage-girl bedrooms in fucking Bozeman, Montana or wherever. That represents a far deeper--and far truer--"paradigm shift" than some Level-Ten Weird Sound that's barely rippling beyond the cognoscenti and the fans.
In a discussion like this, I think scale means something, and while "Sucker MCs" might have changed rap, "When Doves Cry" changed pop, rock, and r&b a good couple of years before Run-DMC was having anything close to that kind of global effect.
batmon said:asstro said:Most people didn't hear (or didn't like) Sucker MC's when it came out, it wasn't on the radio much outside of NY and it wasn't on MTV at all. "When Doves Cry" had the reach to, yes mesmerize, the vast majority of people who had never heard anything like that before.
Well then your on some Latte Pas shit then.
Now who is tryin' to re-write history.
Massive = Most people didn't hear it. Which one is it?
No late pass here man, I was 14 in 1983 and as a Queens native I was all over Run DMC when Sucker MC's dropped. I was also a Prince fan going back to "I Wanna Be Your Lover" and getting in trouble with Moms because she thought "Dirty Mind" wasn't appropriate for an 11 year old. And don't be disingenuous, you know what I'm talking about...
Massive = When Doves Cry
Influential = Sucker MC's
Well then your on some Latte Pas shit then.
Now who is tryin' to re-write history.
Massive = Most people didn't hear it. Which one is it?
No late pass here man, I was 14 in 1983 and as a Queens native I was all over Run DMC when Sucker MC's dropped. I was also a Prince fan going back to "I Wanna Be Your Lover" and getting in trouble with Moms because she thought "Dirty Mind" wasn't appropriate for an 11 year old. And don't be disingenuous, you know what I'm talking about...
Massive = When Doves Cry
Influential = Sucker MC's
james said:batmon said:Alot of Rap made after Run Dmc attempted to ape their style. That was a shift.
Sucker Mc was without baselines in Black music before When Doves Cry.
This is a surprising level of myopia, even for a New Yorker.
Like, okay, let's say you're right--let's say that "When Doves Cry" doesn't sound all that different, that it's only, like, Level-Four Weird Sound, and coming in a year late and a buck short. I personally think that's bullshit, but okay, sure. The fact is that that song had Level-Four Weird Sound pumping out of pastel Soundesigns in lilly-white teenage-girl bedrooms in fucking Bozeman, Montana or wherever. That represents a far deeper--and far truer--"paradigm shift" than some Level-Ten Weird Sound that's barely rippling beyond the cognoscenti and the fans.
In a discussion like this, I think scale means something, and while "Sucker MCs" might have changed rap, "When Doves Cry" changed pop, rock, and r&b a good couple of years before Run-DMC was having anything close to that kind of global effect.
Again, there were no direct musical changes in any of those genres when its comes to the baseline-less When Doves Cry.
Yes the Minneapolis sound was being cloned by many, but were they taking cues from the baseline-less structure? No.
Janet Jackson's Control comes to mind as a direct influence, but she had FlyteTime who werent biting Prince being co-architects of that sound.
I dont know one R&B, Rock, or Pop song that came out right after(lets say within two years) that had the same formula as Doves.
Sucker MC's (without any "OMG they didnt use a baseline" hype) made Hip Hop take heed and set the seeds for more of the same for the next 3 or 4 years until sampling took over.
I just dont see how something was already being done gets over-praised because it was Prince or it was on Becky's Pop Radio.
Well have to agree to disagree.
Baseline-less song from Prince is a big deal to you. Its not to me.
Sucker Mc was without baselines in Black music before When Doves Cry.
This is a surprising level of myopia, even for a New Yorker.
Like, okay, let's say you're right--let's say that "When Doves Cry" doesn't sound all that different, that it's only, like, Level-Four Weird Sound, and coming in a year late and a buck short. I personally think that's bullshit, but okay, sure. The fact is that that song had Level-Four Weird Sound pumping out of pastel Soundesigns in lilly-white teenage-girl bedrooms in fucking Bozeman, Montana or wherever. That represents a far deeper--and far truer--"paradigm shift" than some Level-Ten Weird Sound that's barely rippling beyond the cognoscenti and the fans.
In a discussion like this, I think scale means something, and while "Sucker MCs" might have changed rap, "When Doves Cry" changed pop, rock, and r&b a good couple of years before Run-DMC was having anything close to that kind of global effect.
Again, there were no direct musical changes in any of those genres when its comes to the baseline-less When Doves Cry.
Yes the Minneapolis sound was being cloned by many, but were they taking cues from the baseline-less structure? No.
Janet Jackson's Control comes to mind as a direct influence, but she had FlyteTime who werent biting Prince being co-architects of that sound.
I dont know one R&B, Rock, or Pop song that came out right after(lets say within two years) that had the same formula as Doves.
Sucker MC's (without any "OMG they didnt use a baseline" hype) made Hip Hop take heed and set the seeds for more of the same for the next 3 or 4 years until sampling took over.
I just dont see how something was already being done gets over-praised because it was Prince or it was on Becky's Pop Radio.
Well have to agree to disagree.
Baseline-less song from Prince is a big deal to you. Its not to me.
I like how Bat spells it "bassline" in half his posts and "baseline" in the other half. Then when he's feelin' extra generous he'll throw a dash in.
batmon said:Well have to agree to disagree.
Baseline-less song from Prince is a big deal to you. Its not to me.
Well, I was really talking about music and culture and shit, more so than about you and me. Apart from being an interesting technical footnote, the absence of a bassline doesn't really mean anything to me personally; to me, the grabber has always been those opening airless drum hits and the 3-D guitar scrawl dissolving into that flat, buzzing whirlpool of hungry "yeah yeah yeah"s. In 2013, that shit still pricks up my ears.
But yeah, I think we have an agreement.
Baseline-less song from Prince is a big deal to you. Its not to me.
Well, I was really talking about music and culture and shit, more so than about you and me. Apart from being an interesting technical footnote, the absence of a bassline doesn't really mean anything to me personally; to me, the grabber has always been those opening airless drum hits and the 3-D guitar scrawl dissolving into that flat, buzzing whirlpool of hungry "yeah yeah yeah"s. In 2013, that shit still pricks up my ears.
But yeah, I think we have an agreement.
The fact that WDC doesn't have a bass line, while interesting to think about, is a footnote at best.
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this never noticed or cared about the lack of a bass. It didn't spawn any revolution in terms of other musicians/producers copying this approach either.
To suggest that it was some kind of benchmark game-changer is imagined/revisionist history, imo.
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this never noticed or cared about the lack of a bass. It didn't spawn any revolution in terms of other musicians/producers copying this approach either.
To suggest that it was some kind of benchmark game-changer is imagined/revisionist history, imo.
Horseleech said:The fact that WDC doesn't have a bass line, while interesting to think about, is a footnote at best.
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this never noticed or cared about the lack of a bass. It didn't spawn any revolution in terms of other musicians/producers copying this approach either.
To suggest that it was some kind of benchmark game-changer is imagined/revisionist history, imo.
Totally agreed.
And from an engineering standpoint, the lack of a bassline was actually an (possibly inadvertant) FM power play. The lack of energy in the sub 100 hz area means this song would play louder and brighter across the FM airwaves, with less drag on the multiband limiters that were patched in front of the transmitters. Louder vinyl, louder fm airplay - and as history has shown, winning the loudness wars goes a long way towards pop success - especially back then in its infancy.
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this never noticed or cared about the lack of a bass. It didn't spawn any revolution in terms of other musicians/producers copying this approach either.
To suggest that it was some kind of benchmark game-changer is imagined/revisionist history, imo.
Totally agreed.
And from an engineering standpoint, the lack of a bassline was actually an (possibly inadvertant) FM power play. The lack of energy in the sub 100 hz area means this song would play louder and brighter across the FM airwaves, with less drag on the multiband limiters that were patched in front of the transmitters. Louder vinyl, louder fm airplay - and as history has shown, winning the loudness wars goes a long way towards pop success - especially back then in its infancy.
4YearGraduate said:loudness
Completely off point, but I still feel like I've never really heard Black Moon - Enta Da Stage or Sly Stone - There's A Riot Goin' On, despite listening to those albums dozens of times over the years. It's like listening to an album through a pillow. Annoying as hell, since they're both excellent.
Completely off point, but I still feel like I've never really heard Black Moon - Enta Da Stage or Sly Stone - There's A Riot Goin' On, despite listening to those albums dozens of times over the years. It's like listening to an album through a pillow. Annoying as hell, since they're both excellent.
DB_Cooper said:4YearGraduate said:loudness
Completely off point, but I still feel like I've never really heard Black Moon - Enta Da Stage or Sly Stone - There's A Riot Goin' On, despite listening to those albums dozens of times over the years. It's like listening to an album through a pillow. Annoying as hell, since they're both excellent.
It's funny, Black Moons album is probably THEE best example of what I'm tawmbout. The low pass filters that so make up the amazing character of that album eat up so much energy that they simply couldn't get it loud without limiting technology that was really yet to be introduced. I could easily remaster that LP and make it louder with todays technology but the first thing to go would be the murky, chest humping bass that so many of us love. I would be extracting the Carhartt from it.
Completely off point, but I still feel like I've never really heard Black Moon - Enta Da Stage or Sly Stone - There's A Riot Goin' On, despite listening to those albums dozens of times over the years. It's like listening to an album through a pillow. Annoying as hell, since they're both excellent.
It's funny, Black Moons album is probably THEE best example of what I'm tawmbout. The low pass filters that so make up the amazing character of that album eat up so much energy that they simply couldn't get it loud without limiting technology that was really yet to be introduced. I could easily remaster that LP and make it louder with todays technology but the first thing to go would be the murky, chest humping bass that so many of us love. I would be extracting the Carhartt from it.
Horseleech said:The fact that WDC doesn't have a bass line, while interesting to think about, is a footnote at best.
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this never noticed or cared about the lack of a bass. It didn't spawn any revolution in terms of other musicians/producers copying this approach either.
To suggest that it was some kind of benchmark game-changer is imagined/revisionist history, imo.
When Doves Cry was the first Prince song since I Wanna Be Your Lover to make any inroads on UK radio. I noticed the absence of a bassline right away, and while I thought it was unusual, I didn't think it was anything more than that. After all, compared to everything else on the radio back then, it was a pretty unusual-sounding record anyway. It wasn't until years later that I began to hear people talking about it like leaving out the bassline was some daring, transgressive Statement kind of move.
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this never noticed or cared about the lack of a bass. It didn't spawn any revolution in terms of other musicians/producers copying this approach either.
To suggest that it was some kind of benchmark game-changer is imagined/revisionist history, imo.
When Doves Cry was the first Prince song since I Wanna Be Your Lover to make any inroads on UK radio. I noticed the absence of a bassline right away, and while I thought it was unusual, I didn't think it was anything more than that. After all, compared to everything else on the radio back then, it was a pretty unusual-sounding record anyway. It wasn't until years later that I began to hear people talking about it like leaving out the bassline was some daring, transgressive Statement kind of move.
Horseleech said:The fact that WDC doesn't have a bass line, while interesting to think about, is a footnote at best.
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this...
Would say "which part is the bass?"
Yeah, it was a really popular song, but at least 99.99% of the people who were buying this...
Would say "which part is the bass?"
