Has anyone heard ”When Doves Cry” with a bassline (Prince-related)

[phongone]

http://www.vulture.com/2013/03/questloves-master-class-on-prince.html

This is an interesting article by Toure on Questlove's love (or obsession) with Prince. Questlove describes "When Doves Cry" as the "most radical" song of the 80's because there's no bass:

"I mean, ???When Doves Cry??? is probably the most radical song of the first five years of the eighties, because there???s no bass. I heard the version of ???Doves Cry??? with a bass line???it wouldn???t have grabbed me. Without bass it had a desperate, cold feeling to it. It made you concentrate on his voice. With the bass line, the song was cool. Without it, it was astounding.???

Questlove mentions hearing the version of the song with a bassline -- has anyone heard it and is it readily available?

 

[phatmoneysack]

new grael alert?

 

[DJBombjack]

I hear Biz has it on 12"

 

[batmon]

If dude heard it, it was on some extra special listening party at Prince's house where he had to go shirtless and win at 21.





I never heard of a Bass-Line included version of When Doves Cry.





And its not that Revolutionary. Props for making a Black/Funk/R&B hit w/out a baseline but its not that big of a deal.





Cats have been talmbout that feat for a long minute, but its not some great paradigm shift.

 

[james]

batmon said:And its not that Revolutionary. Props for making a Black/Funk/R&B hit w/out a baseline but its not that big of a deal.





Cats have been talmbout that feat for a long minute, but its not some great paradigm shift.

It kinda is, though.





In and of itself, it's mostly just ("just") a really sonically striking song. But looked at in its larger context, leaving out the bassline denies the listener a certain familiar warmth, and makes the song stand as a kind of rejection of What People Required From Black Music. It's angular and demanding (just like my father, too?), and pretty much the antithesis of the ingratiating, accommodating stuff that MJ, for example, had by then been pushing for years, and I think the absence of a bassline, that cushion underneath, has a lot to do with it.





The more common form of musical innovation is to take an established formula and modify its existing elelments and/or add stuff on top (e.g. the grafted rock moves of "Beat It," an important record in its own way, I suppose); fucking with formula by leaving stuff out is comparatively rare, and generally sounds more revolutionary.





Like, hearing the Sugarhill Gang rapping over the fat and friendly "Good Times" was a big deal to me, but hearing Run-DMC however many years later rapping over just some skeletal drum machine fucked my shit all up. Know what I mean?





I understand your fatigue with the critical gassing-up of this one particular aspect, but unless you don't think "When Doves Cry" was a heavily influential landmark record, I don't see how you can say the bassline shit isn't a big deal.

 

[parallax]

Thes, can the next soulstrut book be nothing but "Jamesian" quotes, please?

 

[Jimster]

Missy/Timabland tried sacking the bassline off too. Lots.





God, those songs sound shit.





'Bout the same time, Masters at Work were simultaneously keeping Gene Perez in bass strings for life and Rescuing Dance Music From The Blahs???.





"Doves" is such an enigmatic record for me. I believe I've had the discussion about "Animals strike curious poses". That line alone has kept me entertained for, oh, decades.





But then there's also "Why do we scream at each other? This is what it sounds like, when doves cry."





Is that, screaming at each other is what lachrymose doves sound like?





Or... and here's the mindf*ck:





Is that "This is what it sounds like, when doves cry :" ?





So doves sound like "beep, beep-beep-beep, ..." when they cry?





I've never made a dove cry so I don't know.





b/w





I've never shoed a horse, but I've told a donkey to f*ck off.

 

[batmon]

james said:batmon said:And its not that Revolutionary. Props for making a Black/Funk/R&B hit w/out a baseline but its not that big of a deal.





Cats have been talmbout that feat for a long minute, but its not some great paradigm shift.

It kinda is, though.





In and of itself, it's mostly just ("just") a really sonically striking song. But looked at in its larger context, leaving out the bassline denies the listener a certain familiar warmth, and makes the song stand as a kind of rejection of What People Required From Black Music. It's angular and demanding (just like my father, too?), and pretty much the antithesis of the ingratiating, accommodating stuff that MJ, for example, had by then been pushing for years, and I think the absence of a bassline, that cushion underneath, has a lot to do with it.





The more common form of musical innovation is to take an established formula and modify its existing elelments and/or add stuff on top (e.g. the grafted rock moves of "Beat It," an important record in its own way, I suppose); fucking with formula by leaving stuff out is comparatively rare, and generally sounds more revolutionary.





Like, hearing the Sugarhill Gang rapping over the fat and friendly "Good Times" was a big deal to me, but hearing Run-DMC however many years later rapping over just some skeletal drum machine fucked my shit all up. Know what I mean?





I understand your fatigue with the critical gassing-up of this one particular aspect, but unless you don't think "When Doves Cry" was a heavily influential landmark record, I don't see how you can say the bassline shit isn't a big deal.




Who else ran with the bassline-less idea? Did it make other artiists reshape their game?





Where are the copycats and influence?





Alot of Rap made after Run Dmc attempted to ape their style. That was a shift.


Sucker Mc was without baselines in Black music before When Doves Cry.





Its not a big deal.

 

[asstro]

Going without a bassline was a pretty huge thing, don't re-write history. The fact that "Sucker MC's" and "When Doves Cry" were such massive records just proves what a shocking sound it was back in 83-84. However, given Prince's well documented disdain for hip-hop, especially back in the early 80's, I kind of doubt that he was looking to Run DMC for production cues. It was just an idea that was too good for someone not to use. The fact that other pop/rock acts didn't use it doesn't mean it wasn't influential as hell, it just shows how difficult it must be to write a song with a sound that will stand up to such sparse instrumentation. Especially since the production style at the time was to pile more and more onto a track, not to strip it down.

 

[Jimster]

We must also remember Prince is batshit crazy.

 

[james]

batmon said:james said:batmon said:And its not that Revolutionary. Props for making a Black/Funk/R&B hit w/out a baseline but its not that big of a deal.





Cats have been talmbout that feat for a long minute, but its not some great paradigm shift.

It kinda is, though.





In and of itself, it's mostly just ("just") a really sonically striking song. But looked at in its larger context, leaving out the bassline denies the listener a certain familiar warmth, and makes the song stand as a kind of rejection of What People Required From Black Music. It's angular and demanding (just like my father, too?), and pretty much the antithesis of the ingratiating, accommodating stuff that MJ, for example, had by then been pushing for years, and I think the absence of a bassline, that cushion underneath, has a lot to do with it.





The more common form of musical innovation is to take an established formula and modify its existing elelments and/or add stuff on top (e.g. the grafted rock moves of "Beat It," an important record in its own way, I suppose); fucking with formula by leaving stuff out is comparatively rare, and generally sounds more revolutionary.





Like, hearing the Sugarhill Gang rapping over the fat and friendly "Good Times" was a big deal to me, but hearing Run-DMC however many years later rapping over just some skeletal drum machine fucked my shit all up. Know what I mean?





I understand your fatigue with the critical gassing-up of this one particular aspect, but unless you don't think "When Doves Cry" was a heavily influential landmark record, I don't see how you can say the bassline shit isn't a big deal.




Who else ran with the bassline-less idea? Did it make other artiists reshape their game?

I'd say that "When Doves Cry" took a chilly, European/new-wave sound--a sound that had in black music theretofore mostly only really been mined in an underground dance context--and made it an option for aboveground black artists who wanted to sell a lot of records. An important part of Prince achieving that chill was leaving out the bass, and when artists started chasing That Prince Sound, a big part of what they were chasing was that chill, that thinness.





Now, as far as how many other artists aped that sound by actually leaving out the bass, maybe you're right that there weren't that many. But that "bassline-less" feel was undeniably a key compnent of what those artists were after. So I'd say it was a big deal in the same way that it was a big deal in the early- to mid-90s when more radio-rock drummers started playing in a way that made them sound like drum loops: even if the technical particulars of a certain technique (sampling drums, leaving out the bass, etc.) are not being duplicated exactly, that root technique is still exerting a pretty big musical influence.

 

[vintageinfants]

J i m s t e r said:We must also remember Prince is batshit crazy.




totally.





i just chalked it up to prince being really mad at his bassist the day he did the final mix because they ate his favorite lefties out of the studio fridge.

 

[batmon]

asstro said:Going without a bassline was a pretty huge thing, don't re-write history. The fact that "Sucker MC's" and "When Doves Cry" were such massive records just proves what a shocking sound it was back in 83-84. However, given Prince's well documented disdain for hip-hop, especially back in the early 80's, I kind of doubt that he was looking to Run DMC for production cues. It was just an idea that was too good for someone not to use. The fact that other pop/rock acts didn't use it doesn't mean it wasn't influential as hell, it just shows how difficult it must be to write a song with a sound that will stand up to such sparse instrumentation. Especially since the production style at the time was to pile more and more onto a track, not to strip it down.




How can you be mesmerized by a no bassline song a year after Sucker MC's?

 

[4YearGraduate]

parallax said:Thes, can the next soulstrut book be nothing but "Jamesian" quotes, please?




:bizzo:





b/w





I guarantee this is just a setup for Quest finding the "test pressing" or "master reel" (because it's going to be a hell of a lot easier to add a bassline to a song than it is to take something off ... ahem). ? was super competitive about that bells thing.

 

[asstro]

Most people didn't hear (or didn't like) Sucker MC's when it came out, it wasn't on the radio much outside of NY and it wasn't on MTV at all. "When Doves Cry" had the reach to, yes mesmerize, the vast majority of people who had never heard anything like that before.

 

[Sunfade]

asstro said:Most people didn't hear (or didn't like) Sucker MC's when it came out, it wasn't on the radio much outside of NY and it wasn't on MTV at all. "When Doves Cry" had the reach to, yes mesmerize, the vast majority of people who had never heard anything like that before.




Nobody even noticed it had no bassline where I was. Or if they did I never heard anyone talk about. The first person I heard talking about it was Nile Rodgers on VH1. He wasn't too surprised it had no bassline, but was surprised a black artist would do a song with no bassline.

 

[Sunfade]

More people talked about if it was an electric razor at the beginning where I was at.

 

[batmon]

asstro said:Most people didn't hear (or didn't like) Sucker MC's when it came out, it wasn't on the radio much outside of NY and it wasn't on MTV at all. "When Doves Cry" had the reach to, yes mesmerize, the vast majority of people who had never heard anything like that before.




Well then your on some Latte Pas shit then.





Now who is tryin' to re-write history.

The fact that "Sucker MC's" and "When Doves Cry" were such massive records just proves what a shocking sound it was back in 83-84.

Massive = Most people didn't hear it. Which one is it?

 

[billbradley]

Biz played it off his laptop backstage at Yo Gabba Gabba last weekend. Totally panned to the one side though.

 

[Jimster]

vintageinfants said:J i m s t e r said:We must also remember Prince is batshit crazy.




totally.





i just chalked it up to prince being really mad at his bassist the day he did the final mix because they ate his favorite lefties out of the studio fridge.




He hates bassists after that tour he did opening for Rick James





:shh:





b/w





I keed, he believes the one Larry Graham is the fount of all funk. Together they do their door-to-door JoHo ting in disguise, IIRC.