Soul Strut 100: # 31 - DJ Shadow - Endtroducing
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Is it fair to say that people are more upset about what the record did than the record itself? Harvey's criticisms are primarily about white kids who latched onto it and almost nothing about the album itself.
Do you review a piece of work because of the ripples it caused or based on it's content? Serious question.
Didn't Screw's works cause a bunch of knucklehead white kids with computers to slow down rap songs with no understanding of how to do it in an enjoyable manner? Should he be blamed?
Does Nevermind suck because of its ripples? Don't worry, I'm not putting those two albums in the same category, but one could probably argue that Endtroducing is the nevermind of a small niche genre.
Also, the explanation of how music is only good if it is played outside of the house is interesting/amusing? I'm not really trying to pick on you Harv, but you came out swinging and then back paddled several times and said it was a good album and belongs on the list. I thoroughly enjoy your passion on this board, but don't always understand why you're so driven to dismiss certain things.
Do you review a piece of work because of the ripples it caused or based on it's content? Serious question.
Didn't Screw's works cause a bunch of knucklehead white kids with computers to slow down rap songs with no understanding of how to do it in an enjoyable manner? Should he be blamed?
Does Nevermind suck because of its ripples? Don't worry, I'm not putting those two albums in the same category, but one could probably argue that Endtroducing is the nevermind of a small niche genre.
Also, the explanation of how music is only good if it is played outside of the house is interesting/amusing? I'm not really trying to pick on you Harv, but you came out swinging and then back paddled several times and said it was a good album and belongs on the list. I thoroughly enjoy your passion on this board, but don't always understand why you're so driven to dismiss certain things.
Controller_7 said:Is it fair to say that people are more upset about what the record did than the record itself? Harvey's criticisms are primarily about white kids who latched onto it and almost nothing about the album itself.
People, including myself, saying they no longer ever listen to the album speaks volumes about the album itself. And it's not about overplaying it when it was released either. For instance, I overplayed Illmatic when it was released, yet I still listen to it regularly today.
Am I reviewing the album here? Or am I reviewing how certain people make too much of a big deal over the album? It's 2 separate conversations really.
But on another hand, yes, if an album attracts an ultimately annoying audience, then that is indeed a reflection of the album IMO.
No, they should be blamed. Just like here, I'm not condemning Shadow's work as much as I'm saying that his stans need to chill the fuck out and gain some perspective already.
I always liked Bleach better than Nevermind.
A great hip-hop album to me gets played at home, in the ride, in the club, everywhere. I was just commenting how Endtroducing was kinda limited in that aspect...and thus maybe not what people were making it out to be. I mean, cool, you could hear it at The Gap. But wouldn't that be a knock on the album, rather than a complement? If it fit right in with Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morrisette, is that really good for a hip-hop album to be?
And I did say it was a good album that deserves to be on the list...based on how much we've talked about Shadow on this site over the years alone. The cratedigging thing definitely factors in here. I'm just saying all along, it's not the groundbreaking goodness, ala an all-time classic that some make it out to be.
Shit, just to bring up another album that's been talked about in length on here this past week...Boxcar Sessions. I like the production on that way better than that on Endtroducing. I could actually say the same for about 100 rap albums from that same era...which leads us back to my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different (all samples, no rappers. Actually, who are we kidding? ----> DONE BY FACELESS WHITE DUDE) to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
Now, deal with it.
People, including myself, saying they no longer ever listen to the album speaks volumes about the album itself. And it's not about overplaying it when it was released either. For instance, I overplayed Illmatic when it was released, yet I still listen to it regularly today.
Am I reviewing the album here? Or am I reviewing how certain people make too much of a big deal over the album? It's 2 separate conversations really.
But on another hand, yes, if an album attracts an ultimately annoying audience, then that is indeed a reflection of the album IMO.
No, they should be blamed. Just like here, I'm not condemning Shadow's work as much as I'm saying that his stans need to chill the fuck out and gain some perspective already.
I always liked Bleach better than Nevermind.
A great hip-hop album to me gets played at home, in the ride, in the club, everywhere. I was just commenting how Endtroducing was kinda limited in that aspect...and thus maybe not what people were making it out to be. I mean, cool, you could hear it at The Gap. But wouldn't that be a knock on the album, rather than a complement? If it fit right in with Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morrisette, is that really good for a hip-hop album to be?
And I did say it was a good album that deserves to be on the list...based on how much we've talked about Shadow on this site over the years alone. The cratedigging thing definitely factors in here. I'm just saying all along, it's not the groundbreaking goodness, ala an all-time classic that some make it out to be.
Shit, just to bring up another album that's been talked about in length on here this past week...Boxcar Sessions. I like the production on that way better than that on Endtroducing. I could actually say the same for about 100 rap albums from that same era...which leads us back to my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different (all samples, no rappers. Actually, who are we kidding? ----> DONE BY FACELESS WHITE DUDE) to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
Now, deal with it.
"Top 100 Soul Strut Related Records as Voted by the Strutters Themselves"
speaking with your vote > lengthy explanations
speaking with your vote > lengthy explanations
St. Cornelius said:"Top 100 Soul Strut Related Records as Voted by the Strutters Themselves"
speaking with your vote > lengthy explanations
Again, it belongs. This is just discussion after the fact. It's why we are here, no?
speaking with your vote > lengthy explanations
Again, it belongs. This is just discussion after the fact. It's why we are here, no?
HarveyCanal said:
Again, it belongs. This is just discussion after the fact. It's why we are here, no?
So does discussing it at length strengthen the reasoning behind why it's on the SoulStrut Top 100, or lessen it? Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.
batmon said:
Boy In The Plastic Bubble Rap.
Tod Lubitch spits pure fiya. Kind of ironic because of how easily plastic melts
Again, it belongs. This is just discussion after the fact. It's why we are here, no?
So does discussing it at length strengthen the reasoning behind why it's on the SoulStrut Top 100, or lessen it? Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.
batmon said:
Boy In The Plastic Bubble Rap.
Tod Lubitch spits pure fiya. Kind of ironic because of how easily plastic melts
I think I'm going to start referring to Harv as "The Biased God".
I still enjoy Midnight, Building Steam, Changeling, and Number Song a lot. WDYSLL is great but better listened to off Premptive Strike.
Some of the stuttered drums sound dated, but I still enjoy them that way.
The independent, loner aspect of this album always spoke to me too, since I'm pretty introverted and socially anxious. It was music with soul and mood and texture and a whole bunch of other things that I couldn't imagine creating on my own. So when I heard it, and found out about how it was made, and began to deconstruct it... My appreciation for it only increased. And it sparked the idea in my mind (as I imagine it did for many people) that I could make music like this. Whoever compared it to prog or psych stuff was bang on.
But I'm slso white. So... I guess I'm a Stan?
I still enjoy Midnight, Building Steam, Changeling, and Number Song a lot. WDYSLL is great but better listened to off Premptive Strike.
Some of the stuttered drums sound dated, but I still enjoy them that way.
The independent, loner aspect of this album always spoke to me too, since I'm pretty introverted and socially anxious. It was music with soul and mood and texture and a whole bunch of other things that I couldn't imagine creating on my own. So when I heard it, and found out about how it was made, and began to deconstruct it... My appreciation for it only increased. And it sparked the idea in my mind (as I imagine it did for many people) that I could make music like this. Whoever compared it to prog or psych stuff was bang on.
But I'm slso white. So... I guess I'm a Stan?
Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Midnight in a Perfect World is indeed a perfect track btw.
I'm actually a bigger fan of Rjd2's Deadringer. But yea, Endtroducing had a big influence on Deadringer as well a slew of other wannabes that followed soon after.
Midnight in a Perfect World is indeed a perfect track btw.
I'm actually a bigger fan of Rjd2's Deadringer. But yea, Endtroducing had a big influence on Deadringer as well a slew of other wannabes that followed soon after.
HarveyCanal said:my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different...to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
That's kind of a bullshit metric, though. As a survivor of the Texas Rap Goldrush of Two Thousand And Whatever, I know you know as well as anyone that the effort it takes to defend the importance of a given record at a given time has a lot to do with fashion. For example, I imagine the argument for "Tops Drop" or whatever got a lot easier to make--that is, required a lot less of the dreaded explanation--right around like '04 or '05. Does that mean it was a less worthy record before? Of course not.
Similarly, a big part of the reason--not the whole reason, for sure, but a lot of the reason--that this is taking such lengthy explanation is not because Endtroducing is the inferior album, but because it's the less-currently-fashionable album among people like us. Issues of musical merit aside, it's undeniable that in 2013, Boxcar Sessions is the far cooler (and thus easier) record to claim. Plus, the particular guilt and self-loathing of white hip-hop fans is such that they will almost always be quicker to ride for That Which Is Not Them. To not recognize trendiness and its underlying racial issues as considerable factors in the hard sell (ha!) necessitated by Endtroducing--to say, "Well, the very fact that we have to talk so much about Endtroducing proves that it's not a great record"--is dumb.
I mean, your argument is not without its reasonable points, but that is sure as shit not one of them.
That's kind of a bullshit metric, though. As a survivor of the Texas Rap Goldrush of Two Thousand And Whatever, I know you know as well as anyone that the effort it takes to defend the importance of a given record at a given time has a lot to do with fashion. For example, I imagine the argument for "Tops Drop" or whatever got a lot easier to make--that is, required a lot less of the dreaded explanation--right around like '04 or '05. Does that mean it was a less worthy record before? Of course not.
Similarly, a big part of the reason--not the whole reason, for sure, but a lot of the reason--that this is taking such lengthy explanation is not because Endtroducing is the inferior album, but because it's the less-currently-fashionable album among people like us. Issues of musical merit aside, it's undeniable that in 2013, Boxcar Sessions is the far cooler (and thus easier) record to claim. Plus, the particular guilt and self-loathing of white hip-hop fans is such that they will almost always be quicker to ride for That Which Is Not Them. To not recognize trendiness and its underlying racial issues as considerable factors in the hard sell (ha!) necessitated by Endtroducing--to say, "Well, the very fact that we have to talk so much about Endtroducing proves that it's not a great record"--is dumb.
I mean, your argument is not without its reasonable points, but that is sure as shit not one of them.
yuichi said:Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
batmon said:yuichi said:Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Neither is this.
Get back to the Sade thread dawgs.
Neither is this.
Get back to the Sade thread dawgs.
i think i have a copy, but not sure i really fully listened to it
i'll try to revisit it
you gotta love the cover!
i'll try to revisit it
you gotta love the cover!
yuichi said:batmon said:yuichi said:Harvey and Batmon, yall need to realize this wasn't catered toward the "hood", it was a nerd making beats for nerds. and a lot more nerds started looking for obscure records as a result. A BIG record and cultural impact it had are undebatable. The sole fact that a TON of people have listened to this record says a lot about the influence/impact it had.
Neither is this.
Get back to the Sade thread dawgs.
Neither is this.
Get back to the Sade thread dawgs.
Since its release I have witnessed plenty of people (young, old, black, white, brown, whatever) get turned on this LP and really respond to it well. And they weren't record heads either. It is a good record for many reasons.
I did not partake in voting during top 100, but Endtroducing would have been a top 10 for me. The Private Press is right up there too.
I did not partake in voting during top 100, but Endtroducing would have been a top 10 for me. The Private Press is right up there too.
james said:HarveyCanal said:my point, that it takes a lengthy explanation of how Endtroducing was somehow different...to even attempt to justify it as an all-time great album.
That's kind of a bullshit metric, though. As a survivor of the Texas Rap Goldrush of Two Thousand And Whatever, I know you know as well as anyone that the effort it takes to defend the importance of a given record at a given time has a lot to do with fashion. For example, I imagine the argument for "Tops Drop" or whatever got a lot easier to make--that is, required a lot less of the dreaded explanation--right around like '04 or '05. Does that mean it was a less worthy record before? Of course not.
Similarly, a big part of the reason--not the whole reason, for sure, but a lot of the reason--that this is taking such lengthy explanation is not because Endtroducing is the inferior album, but because it's the less-currently-fashionable album among people like us. Issues of musical merit aside, it's undeniable that in 2013, Boxcar Sessions is the far cooler (and thus easier) record to claim. Plus, the particular guilt and self-loathing of white hip-hop fans is such that they will almost always be quicker to ride for That Which Is Not Them. To not recognize trendiness and its underlying racial issues as considerable factors in the hard sell (ha!) necessitated by Endtroducing--to say, "Well, the very fact that we have to talk so much about Endtroducing proves that it's not a great record"--is dumb.
I mean, your argument is not without its reasonable points, but that is sure as shit not one of them.
I get what you are saying about fashion. But really, if the album still banged, it would still be banged. Period, end of story. At no point ever have I rated Endtrodcing above Boxcar Sessions nor Tops Drops. Nor have I ever felt the need to explain/convince that Boxcar and Tops were/are both amazing pieces of rap music, beyond just saying yes, of course both are brilliant. The music speaks for itself and stands the test of time. Maybe Endtroducing will come back into vogue at some point. That's fine by me. But we'll just have to wait to see if that actually ever happens, won't we?
And as far as race goes, white people are the ones still hanging onto Endtroducing as their mythical hero. I'm actually the exception from the norm within my own demographic. It's just some of us white dudes who didn't get into hip-hop beats/production/cratedigging by way of Shadow don't feel the need to eternally lionize him for it. As far as white dudes in hip-hop from that time, I'd much rather talk about the superior greatness of Mike Dean productions. Both then and now. Better yet, I'd be even happier just listening to Mike Dean productions and letting the music speak for itself.
That's kind of a bullshit metric, though. As a survivor of the Texas Rap Goldrush of Two Thousand And Whatever, I know you know as well as anyone that the effort it takes to defend the importance of a given record at a given time has a lot to do with fashion. For example, I imagine the argument for "Tops Drop" or whatever got a lot easier to make--that is, required a lot less of the dreaded explanation--right around like '04 or '05. Does that mean it was a less worthy record before? Of course not.
Similarly, a big part of the reason--not the whole reason, for sure, but a lot of the reason--that this is taking such lengthy explanation is not because Endtroducing is the inferior album, but because it's the less-currently-fashionable album among people like us. Issues of musical merit aside, it's undeniable that in 2013, Boxcar Sessions is the far cooler (and thus easier) record to claim. Plus, the particular guilt and self-loathing of white hip-hop fans is such that they will almost always be quicker to ride for That Which Is Not Them. To not recognize trendiness and its underlying racial issues as considerable factors in the hard sell (ha!) necessitated by Endtroducing--to say, "Well, the very fact that we have to talk so much about Endtroducing proves that it's not a great record"--is dumb.
I mean, your argument is not without its reasonable points, but that is sure as shit not one of them.
I get what you are saying about fashion. But really, if the album still banged, it would still be banged. Period, end of story. At no point ever have I rated Endtrodcing above Boxcar Sessions nor Tops Drops. Nor have I ever felt the need to explain/convince that Boxcar and Tops were/are both amazing pieces of rap music, beyond just saying yes, of course both are brilliant. The music speaks for itself and stands the test of time. Maybe Endtroducing will come back into vogue at some point. That's fine by me. But we'll just have to wait to see if that actually ever happens, won't we?
And as far as race goes, white people are the ones still hanging onto Endtroducing as their mythical hero. I'm actually the exception from the norm within my own demographic. It's just some of us white dudes who didn't get into hip-hop beats/production/cratedigging by way of Shadow don't feel the need to eternally lionize him for it. As far as white dudes in hip-hop from that time, I'd much rather talk about the superior greatness of Mike Dean productions. Both then and now. Better yet, I'd be even happier just listening to Mike Dean productions and letting the music speak for itself.
You guys still talking that nonsense? This is a White America/Euroman (with an Asian or two) digging in the obscure crates stylez. If you don't get it, you don't get it. Same way, I don't get 90% of the syrup-drinkin', pistol whippin, indo-smoking teenage music that harvey and others gets off on. I think the first time, dudes were sweating this was precisely around when dudes were in their late teens. Same shit. Different genre. Let it go, HarvMON. If dudes wanna praise this as one of the top 10 electronica albums in URB magazine, then it is what it is. Why yall madd?
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