What happened to Primo? Or us?
- Thread starter mannybolone
- Start date
I think there are a lot of Southern records, Phil, that are similar to the production on T-La Rock. I mean, it's all 808 man. I think that is the point Faux (and I) are hammering at. Nohomo?From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
So just because they are using an 808 you are saying that they are the same thing??? That's all it takes, just program a beat on an 808? You don't really believe that, dog. You KNOW better.
Where do you think they got the idea to rock the 808 from? THAT fucking record man. That was a critical record in terms of production on the west coast and in the south.
I recall reading an interview with jazzy jay, where he talked about using that 808 bass drum for the first time on that song... perhaps it was used before, don't know for sure... but that is the foundation of the music that's been coming out of the rest of the country for 20 years now. It's not just a coincidence. It's a direct outgrowth of that record.... the real schitt
Not arguing the merits of Jeezy as a rapper against TLaRock. No comparison. But production wise, man it is not that far apart and I KNOW you can see that. You did that thread about Triggerman, you listened to that 808 break right?
Now I've gotta go home and stop arguing about hip-hop!
Not arguing the merits of Jeezy as a rapper against TLaRock. No comparison. But production wise, man it is not that far apart and I KNOW you can see that. You did that thread about Triggerman, you listened to that 808 break right?
Now I've gotta go home and stop arguing about hip-hop!
Phill,
I wanna see if I get this: when you're talkin about real hip hop & young jeezy, you're not comparing production techniques or stuff like 808 breaks, are you? T La Rock & Jeezy may not be far apart, in relation to the way the music is made - Is what you're talking about is a difference in the vibe, a feeling in the gut, or a kind of atmosphere created by the music?
Peace
h
I think there are a lot of Southern records, Phil, that are similar to the production on T-La Rock. I mean, it's all 808 man. I think that is the point Faux (and I) are hammering at. Nohomo?From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
So just because they are using an 808 you are saying that they are the same thing??? That's all it takes, just program a beat on an 808? You don't really believe that, dog. You KNOW better.
Where do you think they got the idea to rock the 808 from? THAT fucking record man. That was a critical record in terms of production on the west coast and in the south.
I recall reading an interview with jazzy jay, where he talked about using that 808 bass drum for the first time on that song... perhaps it was used before, don't know for sure... but that is the foundation of the music that's been coming out of the rest of the country for 20 years now. It's not just a coincidence. It's a direct outgrowth of that record.... the real schitt
Not arguing the merits of Jeezy as a rapper against TLaRock. No comparison. But production wise, man it is not that far apart and I KNOW you can see that. You did that thread about Triggerman, you listened to that 808 break right?
Yep, I did. I actually have that record- didn't even realize that I had it since back when it first came out. It is not a good record, but that break is definitely nice. Reminds me of a lot of old drumbreak records where the whole song is bad and then a dope break just comes in out of nowhere for a few seconds, then it's right back to the wackness.
I know all about the influence of "It's Yours" and other records like the Original Concept joint on Southern rap. I honestly have never heard a southern rap song that sounds like "It's Yours", but I don't doubt that some may exist (beat-wise, at least). If you or anybody else has MP3s I'd like to hear some of this stuff.
I think you and faux are just focusing on what you want to focus on, though. "Don't say that the music that I love from my area is not that real shit! It IS that real shit!" If you understand the differences in musical styles that I have illustrated then you should understand what I'm talking about. Is your favorite hip-house record also real hip hop? Is your favorite new jack swing record "that real shit"? They are all off-shoots of traditional hip hop, just like southern rap, west coast g-rap, booty bass, etc. It doesn't matter, they are something different from what to me is "that real hip hop shit". You guys have to stop feeling like your music is being disrespected when I say this- I respect ALL of that stuff for what it is. Does not mean that I have to love it like I love raw hip hop music, just like you do not have to love Primo's recent beats as much as you love Dipset. Different strokes for different folks.
No, I don't feel like you're disrespecting the music at all. I feel like you don't understand it. I understand that when you refer to "real hip-hop" you are referring to a raw feeling and type of sound, right? So I don't understand how you would characterize a record like "6 In The Morning" or "Boys In The Hood" as not being raw, gritty, stripped down, etc. I mean, those records are just an SP stab and an 808. I play those records right next to T La Rock, LL Cool J, etc. I guess all I'm saying to you is that your definition of raw is local to NY - a song with exactly the same credentials, but not from the same place, doesn't seem to fit the bill.
Anyway, it's far past the hour at which I am allowed to argue about hip-hop! I will see you idoits and folls in the am
Anyway, it's far past the hour at which I am allowed to argue about hip-hop! I will see you idoits and folls in the am
Phill please to send all that " real hip hop shit" that you have amassed over the years to me i think i can find some use for it,i'm sure of it.You know we starving outhere in the 3rd world brethren.
And a small question what would you classify the afrika bambaataa songs "Looking for a perfect beat" etc as? please feel free to crush my world some more.
And a small question what would you classify the afrika bambaataa songs "Looking for a perfect beat" etc as? please feel free to crush my world some more.
I have always said that much of today's hip hop reminds me of the mid 80's drum machine era of rap. That was not really a great time period in old school history IMO. Of course there were some good records made during that time, but you have to factor in more than just the drum sounds being used. You know the saying,
"it's not what you have, it's what you do with it". So yes, HAZ, I would say that it's about a difference in the vibe, a feeling in the gut, and a kind of atmosphere created by the music. I just don't know if I can explain it any further than I already have. I'm tired, I need to go to bed (whew... all day arguing about this shit when I shoulda been busy making moves in the real world! Please don't bait me into sinking deeper into this abyss tomorrow, dudes... I need to get some work done.)
You know, on third thought, this Big Shug is pretty banging.
Primo...rock on!
J/k. It is still boring.
Primo...rock on!
J/k. It is still boring.
Damn. I want to read this whole thread but it would take half if not all of the night. You have to be checking on this thread every minute to check out the new shit posted.
To embellish this a little, I'd hazard to say that B. Fats/Teddy Riley weren't as 'real' as the B-Boys on Vintertainment Records: '2, 3, Break'/'Girls' (which has an 808 that smacks)... Joeski Love not so much though...
Other random musings -
Part of what makes McKasty legendary in this day and age was his focus on a raw drum sound - even the Black Rock & Ron material on RCA (once they had moved on from Next Plateau) still retains that raw aesthetic owing to C.'s handiwork... Seeing his name on PRODUCTION/MIXING (instead of just engineering) credits ensured (most of the time) that the record would be slamming...
That Bozo Meko record is raw not only b/c of the fact that it was recorded pretty much live and the sound quality's pretty uneven, but that it doesn't possess any of the fabricated sheen of the Sugarhill version... Although some may dispute it, the best work that Keith LeBlanc ever did (from this vantage point) was Malcolm X's 'No Sell Out' as opposed to his tenure in the Sugarhill in-house band...
Hearing Shan's 'The Bridge' on the radio for the first time mirrored the experience of savoring 'Rebel w/o a Pause' upon first listen - raw and unfiltered - similar to the Aleems (featuring Leroy Burgess) and 'Get Loose' in the midst of some glossy modern soul of the early '80s...
ok, let me start. first of all, to me pete rock and premier are the greatest hiphop producer who ever touched the keys. period. their work, output consistent quality more than 10 years is legendary. ok, but that'a already been said.
problem with the discussion i think there are some premier/pete rock die hard fans and some who like a couple of tracks and come with the prejudices "they never developed since 1998". but if you listen to every single track both made you can hear a devolpment, also a reinvention, but also big break in both timeline and work. to me, it seems like many who didn't like premo over years come up now. you know, the standard "come on, premo is boring, 4/4 is out of date...".
if it would only be them critizing it would be ok. but even as a die hard fan, i have to say that both have extremely fallen down. it was 2003 when they both dissapointed so much, i have to say rap must be serious sick.
let's look at premier:
the 93-96 era was classic. almost every track he touched back than is a classic. everyone tried to bite him, but nobody came close. it was a combination of minimalstic but very fluid production that catched your ear.
let's take his reinvention in 1998. he managed to reinvent his formular. with the new sample laws, he perfected his chopping technique by only working with seconds. looping was done. in 1998 i couldn't see the real worth of moment of truth. premo was ahead of his time with this work and underlined his status as the master of chopping.
i read people saying after moment of truth, he was just boring. but come on?
premier made his best beats after moment of truth, otherwise some of y'all must have forgotten. ok, maybe it's just a matter of taste. but just take:
rakim - when i be on tha mic 1999
limp bizkit - n2gether now 1999
freddie foxx - a part of my life 2000
big l - intro/ eboncs remix 2000
ditc - thick 2000
lox - recognize 2000
mop - warriorz tracks 2000
common - 6th sense
nas - 2nd childhood 2001
royce 5 9 - boom 2001
ed og - sayin something 2001
craig david - 7 days remix 2002
non phixion - rock stars 2002
these are just a few of his tracks in this short period. and you can't say these tracks suck all. or that nobody wanted to hear them. n2gether now was his greatest commercial success. everybody loved it. and he still managed to do a real hardcore hiphop beat without making compromisses. boom, hell it got mad airplay as it was the lead single of hiphop opera with mos def and beyonce.
the diggin argument that came up to me is pure nonsense. premier made some of his best works out of nothing. ever listened to the samples for limp bizkit, rakim, craig david, common. these are dollar bins. but chopped up to the fullest. there no really clean parts on it if you take rakim, or big l intro. you got breathing in it, because of the minimalistic chopping between the lyrics. so, it's not about premo isn't digging or anything.
what's interesting. when i look at his career he always didn't get the right promotion. just take craig david remix. i talked to a lot of rnb cats and they all loved it! damn, it was in a versace jeans commercial an all music stations! nobody knew what it was. this single was so underpromoted as can be. so this problem can be added when we talk about his career and maybe paved the way for his bad development too.
but something happened with his sound in 2002. it became real robotic. there were no hihats in his drumsets anymore. he kept his mary jane girls snare til today, wich already sounds computerish. in 2002/2003 came a lot of tracks out that confused me. just-ice, janet jackson all 4 u remix, rise n shine, devin the dude.
this time, premier tried to reinvend himself the third time. he was fucking with keyboards. played basslines. reduced his tracks only to kick, snare, an a keybaord bassline. that sounded robotic, uninspired, cold. premier ruined his sound this way.
i think, he wanted a piece of the cake, try to update his sound. he says timbaland is an inspiration for him. but why can't he stay in his region?
i hoped for the gangstarr lp, but i was even more dissapointed.
there were only 2 premier tracks after 2002 that really caught me.
snoop - the one and only
gnagstarr - deadly habitz
both had him chopping to death and i even heard a hihat. it was the old premo feeling, where he pushed the song from beginning to end, where you are waiting every second to hear the loop again, so your ears can understand what went on when mr martin was doing when he did this.
some tracks on ownerz were good/ok (skillz was fresh, zoning was cool, so ownerz) but most of the tracks were really dissapointing. some where aweful. the who got gunz with fat joe was a shame. that was premier robotic to perfection.
premier hasn't recovered since then and i doubt he ever will BUT if you look at history, he made his greatest work when nobody expected him to work with an artist nobody imagined he could work with. (snoop, limp bizkit, craig david). all tracks were innovative and had a new premier sound. maybe aguilera can push premier, but i dont think so.
imo, i think premier and pete got old, tired of seeing people like kanye collecting grammies for the things they did way before and even better. maybe it's about premo lost his engineer sancho and his home at dnd? maybe he's too busy with his lable? i heard he had mad problems by putting it together. fred durst never called him back, after he nodded to support his lable.
i just think it's an combination of being "shot", trying to get a piece of a cake by updating your style and maybe the knowledge that time is running away.
the same goes for pete. and the similarities are extremely intersting. also his soul survivour 1998 was so underrated. i recognized the value only a few years later. and he also dissapointed 2003 with ss2. he also tried to update his style. just hear his postaboy beat and warzone with dead prez. he tried to go jiggy. it was embarassing for me to hear pete like this. he wanted a piece of the cake in 2003 that bad too. and ruined his sound.
i read an argument, that az - the come up should be really good, and when it came out in 1999 it would be the shit. and that it should be the reason that the listener has developed but not premier. that's straight nonsense. the come up has this robotic feeling to. the mary jane snares. an unsinspired sample and his played bassline. that's not the premier between 1999-2000.
look, i found a track pete rock feat. rob-o - war. it think it's from the late 90ies. so out of date in most of y'all opinions. it was an whitelabel exclusice at hiphopall.com. when i heard it a few days ago i was flashed. this was pure energy. so that argument doesn't count. same with petestrumentals 1 in 2001. like 90% of the beats on it where old ones from the ini session era. but i played his petestrumentals always. it was one of the greatest hiphop production i heard. not only beats, but complex compositions with about 4-6 samples in a track, put together, that the listener thought, there were studio players at work.
so forget that expiration date argument. maybe the normal listener wants kanye. but i listen to what's dope. not what should be dope. second i always will love that 90ies era sound. and i would love it if hiphop could go back to this sound. to me, hiphop is dead since a couple of years.
problem with the discussion i think there are some premier/pete rock die hard fans and some who like a couple of tracks and come with the prejudices "they never developed since 1998". but if you listen to every single track both made you can hear a devolpment, also a reinvention, but also big break in both timeline and work. to me, it seems like many who didn't like premo over years come up now. you know, the standard "come on, premo is boring, 4/4 is out of date...".
if it would only be them critizing it would be ok. but even as a die hard fan, i have to say that both have extremely fallen down. it was 2003 when they both dissapointed so much, i have to say rap must be serious sick.
let's look at premier:
the 93-96 era was classic. almost every track he touched back than is a classic. everyone tried to bite him, but nobody came close. it was a combination of minimalstic but very fluid production that catched your ear.
let's take his reinvention in 1998. he managed to reinvent his formular. with the new sample laws, he perfected his chopping technique by only working with seconds. looping was done. in 1998 i couldn't see the real worth of moment of truth. premo was ahead of his time with this work and underlined his status as the master of chopping.
i read people saying after moment of truth, he was just boring. but come on?
premier made his best beats after moment of truth, otherwise some of y'all must have forgotten. ok, maybe it's just a matter of taste. but just take:
rakim - when i be on tha mic 1999
limp bizkit - n2gether now 1999
freddie foxx - a part of my life 2000
big l - intro/ eboncs remix 2000
ditc - thick 2000
lox - recognize 2000
mop - warriorz tracks 2000
common - 6th sense
nas - 2nd childhood 2001
royce 5 9 - boom 2001
ed og - sayin something 2001
craig david - 7 days remix 2002
non phixion - rock stars 2002
these are just a few of his tracks in this short period. and you can't say these tracks suck all. or that nobody wanted to hear them. n2gether now was his greatest commercial success. everybody loved it. and he still managed to do a real hardcore hiphop beat without making compromisses. boom, hell it got mad airplay as it was the lead single of hiphop opera with mos def and beyonce.
the diggin argument that came up to me is pure nonsense. premier made some of his best works out of nothing. ever listened to the samples for limp bizkit, rakim, craig david, common. these are dollar bins. but chopped up to the fullest. there no really clean parts on it if you take rakim, or big l intro. you got breathing in it, because of the minimalistic chopping between the lyrics. so, it's not about premo isn't digging or anything.
what's interesting. when i look at his career he always didn't get the right promotion. just take craig david remix. i talked to a lot of rnb cats and they all loved it! damn, it was in a versace jeans commercial an all music stations! nobody knew what it was. this single was so underpromoted as can be. so this problem can be added when we talk about his career and maybe paved the way for his bad development too.
but something happened with his sound in 2002. it became real robotic. there were no hihats in his drumsets anymore. he kept his mary jane girls snare til today, wich already sounds computerish. in 2002/2003 came a lot of tracks out that confused me. just-ice, janet jackson all 4 u remix, rise n shine, devin the dude.
this time, premier tried to reinvend himself the third time. he was fucking with keyboards. played basslines. reduced his tracks only to kick, snare, an a keybaord bassline. that sounded robotic, uninspired, cold. premier ruined his sound this way.
i think, he wanted a piece of the cake, try to update his sound. he says timbaland is an inspiration for him. but why can't he stay in his region?
i hoped for the gangstarr lp, but i was even more dissapointed.
there were only 2 premier tracks after 2002 that really caught me.
snoop - the one and only
gnagstarr - deadly habitz
both had him chopping to death and i even heard a hihat. it was the old premo feeling, where he pushed the song from beginning to end, where you are waiting every second to hear the loop again, so your ears can understand what went on when mr martin was doing when he did this.
some tracks on ownerz were good/ok (skillz was fresh, zoning was cool, so ownerz) but most of the tracks were really dissapointing. some where aweful. the who got gunz with fat joe was a shame. that was premier robotic to perfection.
premier hasn't recovered since then and i doubt he ever will BUT if you look at history, he made his greatest work when nobody expected him to work with an artist nobody imagined he could work with. (snoop, limp bizkit, craig david). all tracks were innovative and had a new premier sound. maybe aguilera can push premier, but i dont think so.
imo, i think premier and pete got old, tired of seeing people like kanye collecting grammies for the things they did way before and even better. maybe it's about premo lost his engineer sancho and his home at dnd? maybe he's too busy with his lable? i heard he had mad problems by putting it together. fred durst never called him back, after he nodded to support his lable.
i just think it's an combination of being "shot", trying to get a piece of a cake by updating your style and maybe the knowledge that time is running away.
the same goes for pete. and the similarities are extremely intersting. also his soul survivour 1998 was so underrated. i recognized the value only a few years later. and he also dissapointed 2003 with ss2. he also tried to update his style. just hear his postaboy beat and warzone with dead prez. he tried to go jiggy. it was embarassing for me to hear pete like this. he wanted a piece of the cake in 2003 that bad too. and ruined his sound.
i read an argument, that az - the come up should be really good, and when it came out in 1999 it would be the shit. and that it should be the reason that the listener has developed but not premier. that's straight nonsense. the come up has this robotic feeling to. the mary jane snares. an unsinspired sample and his played bassline. that's not the premier between 1999-2000.
look, i found a track pete rock feat. rob-o - war. it think it's from the late 90ies. so out of date in most of y'all opinions. it was an whitelabel exclusice at hiphopall.com. when i heard it a few days ago i was flashed. this was pure energy. so that argument doesn't count. same with petestrumentals 1 in 2001. like 90% of the beats on it where old ones from the ini session era. but i played his petestrumentals always. it was one of the greatest hiphop production i heard. not only beats, but complex compositions with about 4-6 samples in a track, put together, that the listener thought, there were studio players at work.
so forget that expiration date argument. maybe the normal listener wants kanye. but i listen to what's dope. not what should be dope. second i always will love that 90ies era sound. and i would love it if hiphop could go back to this sound. to me, hiphop is dead since a couple of years.
Phil, isn't the origin of "piff" uptown specifically purple city & dipset? EXPLAIN THAT ONE!
uh oh...
uh oh...
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