Prince declares ”the internet's completely over.”

[Matt Adore]

DOR said:Jonny,





Does how much money you put into music or make from music tells you the quality of the music? How many quality songs were made over the last 500 years where money was the deciding factor of if the music was good or not?





My problem is people stating that artist will no longer feel the need to create if there is no money in making music. And I think that's bullshit... I'm sure a portion of people will not bother, but this idea that artist will stop making quality music is ludicrous. People with talent will create regardless of money. Even more so, since the tools to produce music has come down to extremely low levels...





There are plenty of reasons why music has lost value to consumers. Free IMO doesn't have most to do with it. You were always able to get free music off the radio. If you were a DJ, a good portion were always able to get free music from servicing (You didn't even need to be a big name DJ to get it). The list could go on...





I have no problem to say that sure, downloading is part of the issue. But there are other factors. The idea that more music was probably released in the last year than probably all of the 60's combined. The fact that consumers have so many things to spend their discretionary income on... The fact that labels still to this day don't do much to change their business models. I mean, I can still go into an HMV and find CD's selling for $25 bucks... Or that on itunes, plenty of times the non-tangible album sells for just as much as buying the CD. Which makes very little to no sense to me.





I was just reading the other day. Remember that youtube video about the kid who went to the dentist and was all messed up? Well, the father told people how he made over $100,000 from that single video alone off youtube (With 3 million views) alone off that video and more off other ways...





The point is this... Times are a changing. Business models should be as well. Get whatever it is you're making seen (or heard) by as many people in the world as possible. The money will follow...





Who also should be worried in all of this, is the consumer. Since you will begin to see the attempts to many consumer rights disappear when it comes to buying music in the near future.

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

It absolutely does matter - think recording quality. tour support. promotions budget. Do you think "getting your music out there" is free? None of it is. It's pie in the sky to any artist to imagine that they'll just "get their music out there" and if it's good, hey! Success! I mean come on. You're admittedly aware of how glutted the music scene is currently, how hard it is to get your music heard at all. Pay to play still exists on almost every level, too.





What we'd be left with, if you had your way, if we take the world of old records as a parallel, would be the kind of low-budget private press affairs that leave you wondering what might've been if the artist had a real budget and some better production. Out of which perhaps 1 in 100 really live up to the price.





I agree that the models have to change, but think on this: I own my own business, right? And times are tough. There are times I long for the stability of a job for a bigger company. And what you're basically saying is: No, all of you people who want to work better go out there and start your own businesses, because there's not going to be jobs for you in the new world order. Is that the truth? There are elements of truth to that, sure. But a lot of people - rightly - would be scared, and many wouldn't be able to hack it or even get off the ground. That's what you're saying to artists in your post, that they'd better just go it alone and hope it works out.





That may be the current reality, but the attitude is nonetheless troubling because it basically puts the onus on the artist to just "get on with it". Sounds very "realist" but also bitter and resigned. And artists aren't the ones at fault, here...

 

[Reynaldo]

When good music totally stops being recorded and released, and when all artists fold their arms in front of their chests, then I might pay. As long as I can get a 30 to 50-play album out of the majors every couple months then I'm willing to wait them out. Things aren't bad enough yet. People don't need as much music as was being offered at the industry price. I can make due with 6 good albums a year from the entire industry. They're done.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Sorry, but I find all this vague talk about the money "following" to be hopelessly naive. Exactly how will the money follow? Through revenue from touring? Does that apply on a pay-to-play circuit as well? Where are the safeguards against things like unscrupulous promoters who decide to skip out on paying you? I suppose there's always merchandising. After all, there's certainly plenty of evidence that people will spend ??25 on a t-shirt before they'll spend it on a CD, such is the attraction of appearing to have the knowledge over actually having it. But where does the money to manufacture all those t-shirts come from? And how much gear do you leave out of the van in order to make room for the all-important merch? After all, if music is now just something you do in order to sell shirts, that really ought to take priority over instruments, backline, etc.





Whenever someone makes the implicit suggestion that people should be happy to create for the love of it, and should treat things such as financial rewards and success as privileges, instead of benefits you gain through being good at what you do or popular because of it, I have to ask them - do you work for nothing? No, you don't. But I bet you sink a lot of your own time, money and energy into your hobbies, whatever they may be. If you don't mind the so-called "creative classes" becoming little more than hobbyists and spending as much time working on their e-business game as they do actually making music (which is the only thing musicians are really interested in), then that's fine. But scratch the surface of any gifted, enthusiastic amateur in any field of creative endeavour, and underneath you'll find someone who's working towards becoming a paid professional. Without the infrastructure to help them thrive - and that infrastructure is disappearing, whether it be film, music, TV, journalism, literature, whatever - they remain hobbyists, and that ideal of reaching as many people in the world as possible remains as far away as ever.





Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, the price of an album on iTunes has never been the same as that of a physical CD at full retail in a bricks-and-mortar record store.

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

DocMcCoy said:Sorry, but I find all this vague talk about the money "following" to be hopelessly naive. Exactly how will the money follow?











Without the infrastructure to help them thrive - and that infrastructure is disappearing, whether it be film, music, TV, journalism, literature, whatever - they remain hobbyists, and that ideal of reaching as many people in the world as possible remains as far away as ever.







THIS x a millie.

 

[DJ_Enki]

DocMcCoy said: the thing I find objectionable is that whenever a performer of Prince's status makes a point like this is, "hasn't he got enough money already?" Suddenly, the general principle of a musician being able to gain some kind of remuneration from his or her craft no longer matters when you've accumulated enough cash and that, once you reach a certain point you're expected work for nothing, regardless of whether or not there's a network of other individuals or ancillary services relying upon you for a living.




See also: Lars Ulrich vs. Napster

 

[Reynaldo]

Paying for music is like paying for sex.





Labels are the pimps; artists are the hoes.





The concert venue is the strip club.





Don't be a trick.

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

Reynaldo saidaying for music is like paying for sex.





Labels are the pimps; artists are the hoes.





The concert venue is the strip club.




I think this is a fair comparison.





So, when you take the music without asking, you are raping the musician. Nice.

 

[DOR]

But this goes both ways.





You being a store owner probably know that for quite a while now, labels have been trying to make it illegal for you to buy and resell used music. We are now getting to that point with them getting that. In the digital age, consumers will lose many of their rights with music and what they can do with it.





For all this complaining about free music, people need to understand that consumers are not stupid. With technology they understand that manufacturing and distribution of music has come down greatly. They understand that a bit of money goes into production, while the major portion goes into marketing & promotion... And the labels are a big part to blame for where we are right now.





I'm willing to bet, it's easier today if I'm an artist, to get seen. Way easier than say 20+ years ago when I needed someone to back me with money. You just need your break. Much like you needed your break back in the day. The difference is, you can be direct with your audience.





Case in point. This kid is what 11 or some shit? Dude posts a video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxDlC7YV5is) and gets close to 30 million views. If youtube paid that father of the dentist video $100,000 for a video with 3 million views, how much did that kid just make? Plus, he got a recording contract in under a month of posting. When in the history of recording could an artist have that happen? And the thing is... He isn't the only one. The thing that will change most now is an artist will have to become more than just dudes that make music.





I've stated this before... So it's probably a broken record by now. But my family was in the music biz for over 30 years. Retail, wholesale, etc... When all is said and done, if you really feel like there is no money to be made in the biz, you should get out. In early 2000, we saw it... We didn't blame consumers for getting free music. Or our DJ's customers who bought from us most of their life, because they were now able to get free music or cheap music from an online store. We recognized the biz was changing.





IMO, Money doesn't stop being made because your music is free... And the quality of music never matters on how much money you put into it.





It's like, remember back in the day when everyone wanted to be a DJ? You had those dudes who had money and dropped large amounts of cash on the best equipment, the best records? Didn't make them an awesome DJ. Didn't really help them make a shit load of dough. 99% of them sold off their gear and got out of it.





Today it's photography... Everyone wants to be a photographer. You can spend 5-10 G's and get all the best gear, but it doesn't make you any better than the dude with a $400 camera.





Once again, I'm not trying to say free music for everyone. Just stating that, the idea of 1. The quality of music will suffer is wrong IMO and 2. You can still make money off your music, even if people are downloading it for free.





Maybe I'm completely wrong... I'm just glad that throughout history money was never a monster factor in many great works from artist. Could you imagine if money was that important how many artist who have never created amazing works? The list would be pretty long...

 

[Jonny_Paycheck]

I don't think you're wrong, I just tend to think that a) you're fighting a strawman - the idea that anyone here is blaming consumers for downloading free music, and b) you're blaming the artist for wanting the situation to be different.





Yes, artists we're talking about here. Not youtube sensations. If you want the would-be youtube sensations of the pre-digital era I can point you in the direction of a nice landfill. It's got "How Much Is That Doggie In The Window" and "Disco Duck" for days. Who will make the next Forever Changes? Who will be the next Prince?





I know that your family has been in the music industry for decades and this is why you feel the way you feel. I sense a feeling of resignation in your posts still, from that experience. But the fact that things have changed, to me, is no excuse for quitting, for not wanting things to be better, for not lobbying for changes within the industry.

 

[DOR]

But this is the main point I'm trying to make here. Business or artist for that matter don't control markets or how things should play out. Consumers do. Your creation doesn't hold value unless you have someone willing to pay that or consume it. That's the way the world works. The recording industry still fails to do anything about that. They believe they control everything.





Hey, in all honesty I'd probably have a totally different opinion on this if the music industry played fair. We are now at a time when you no longer buy or own a tangible product where you can do what you want with it. We are at a point where you are gaining a license and that's where your rights end. Where government is used to sustain a non working out of date business model. Where artist are force to sue or take away consumers internet use on just the accusation of infringement.





It is a mess. I don't disagree. And I do want artist to make money. I just think the industry needs to go in a different direction on how that will happen.





I just don't equate with the idea that artist will stop producing quality music. Too many amazing examples out there of masterpieces of people who created them never making a cent out there. It's been over 10 years now since Napster. Shouldn't the music industry be dead by now? Shouldn't no one be making music any more? What are people waiting for? For mp3's not to exist any longer? Why in 2010 are people like David Letterman and Ellen starting up record labels? How is apple selling over 10 billion songs? Don't people know music is free?





Back to Prince... Hey Doc, didn't he release one of his last albums for free over there in conjunction with a newspaper? How did that play out? I guess not well...

 

[SoulOnIce]

As someone who spends a lot of my free time going to small local shows of metal, indie rock & punk bands, and does a fair share of promoting them through my radio programs, I have to say the music industry at a grass roots level is actually in a pretty good place right now. It's what I hoped would happen - with the major labels in such a lame duck state and the money to be made from pursuing major success almost negligible at this point, the "DIY" ethic has really come to the fore.





Small labels, self-released albums, the return of cassettes as a cheap hip format for upcoming bands, tours in vans across the country on a shoestring budget ... it reminds me of the 80's, pre-"grunge" and post-payola scandals. As far as I'm concerned, in many ways the music "industry" is healthier than ever - just on a small scale and with niche artists playing to their base without delusions of sold-out stadium tours.





So, yes, my point in a nutshell is that Prince's next album should be cassette-only

 

[DOR]

SoulOnIce said:





So, yes, my point in a nutshell is that Prince's next album should be cassette-only




Is the cassette purple? I would buy it...

 

[LokoOne]

DOR said:SoulOnIce said:





So, yes, my point in a nutshell is that Prince's next album should be cassette-only




Is the cassette purple? I would buy it...




And after you buy it can you lend it to me so i can make a dub copy.... ;-)

 

[DOR]

LokoOne saidOR said:SoulOnIce said:





So, yes, my point in a nutshell is that Prince's next album should be cassette-only




Is the cassette purple? I would buy it...




And after you buy it can you lend it to me so i can make a dub copy.... ;-)

 

[DOR]

After just reading the article again. He banned YouTube and iTunes? Because they wouldn't pay him an advance?

 

[LaserWolf]

[quote author="DOR" date=1278384389Business or artist for that matter don't control markets or how things should play out. Consumers do.




For good or bad, better or worse, this is the truth.





This is bad news for the next Steely Dan who want to spend hundreds of hours having the worlds best musicians play the same part over and over to get it just perfect.


Also bad news for the singer with charisma who needs someone to tell them what to record and wear and cut their hair and needs someone to put a band together for them and direct the band and book the tour and their hand and tell them they are great.





Here in Portland the local music scene is booming, loads of venues, bands, songwriters, studios producing music that is creating national and international buzz.





My point is things change.


Good for some, bad for others.





Which i think we can all agree on.

 

[LaserWolf]

Prince has always struggled with the recording ndustry.


Despte beng one of the ost succesful arsts of the 80s, his own publishing, studio, label imprints, producing and writing and movies he felt he was a slave to his label.





My new wreless keyboard drops the letter "I" and "M" and the number 5 all the time.





I think more than money what Prince wants and has always wanted is control.

 

[Rockadelic]

Poor Al Gore....first the divorce and now his greatest invention is obsolete!

 

[spelunk]

so people should be paid for videotaping their children and putting it on the internet but not for dedicating their lives towards making music? Great argument DOR.





Everyone complains about the state of music these days, EXCEPT when anyone brings up artists getting paid and then people make these generic claims about how much great music is being made these days.





I do understand the "times are changing", "get with the picture" argument, and yeah, everyone is doing this in various ways, banking on different possible futures. But don't mask a highly unstable time with a collapsed industry as being normal or "how it should be". I mean dudes act like sitting around thinking about how to make their video "go viral" as the next big Youtube phenomenon is normal, reliable promotion and marketing, or that this is in any way an improvement. That's the part that is truly absurd - that people call this an improvement.





Prince is correct. Remember - this is the guy who gave away tens of thousands of copies of his album in the UK, and then went and sold out every single show. He has lasted for DECADES throughout all kinds of music industry turmoil. He is not some ranting idiot and dismissing him as such is immature - Prince knows a hell of a lot more than pretty much anyone on Soulstrut about the music biz.